7 comments

  • turbobutton2 hours ago
    I wonder if UBI might be an admittedly dark and cynical way to facilitate a possible AI transition. If e.g. full self driving for trucks is perfected in the US within the next three years and more than six million truckers loose their job at once, there is realistically no way to retrain this cohort. Using taxes on AI revenue to facilitate (somewhat universal) BI for that group, together with very liberal drug policies might keep social peace. Granted, not a satisfying live, but preferable to the alternatives...
    • bjackman1 hour ago
      What could possibly by dark and cynical about that? This is the only way we can possibly deal with mass unemployment.<p>Also, 6 million people forced to spend their waking lives driving trucks is not a good thing. The thing that&#x27;s good about that is the income they get from it. If we create enough wealth to give them the income without the truck driving... We won? That&#x27;s the goal here. That&#x27;s what the economy is _for_. Employment is the way the economy has always achieved that, but it doesn&#x27;t meant employment is the goal, it&#x27;s a means to an end.
      • JKCalhoun1 hour ago
        &quot;This is the only way we can possibly deal with mass unemployment.&quot;<p>That or something like the Public Works Administration (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Public_Works_Administration" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Public_Works_Administration</a>).<p>(And you get <i>infrastructure</i> out of it.)
        • e4053 minutes ago
          It’s probably not the same people, different skills.
      • jvanderbot1 hour ago
        Your point is optimistic and consistent, I won&#x27;t criticize it.<p>But you should know that it&#x27;s a fairly narrow, political, and controversial thing to say that the purpose of the economy is to support people during unemployment crises. In fact it&#x27;s so axiomatic that I really think it&#x27;s worth calling out as <i>part of the assumed solution</i> not an obvious and foundational truth.
        • pennomi1 hour ago
          It’s not the purpose of the economy, it’s the purpose of <i>civilization</i>.<p>What makes us different than most types of animals is that we’re capable of supporting the less fortunate members of our species even through life-threatening situations.
          • sdeframond41 minutes ago
            I remember some archeologist saying that the first sign of civilization is not some tool or whatever but a healed fractured bone. That means the person that got hurt was cared for by other people who had enough resources to afford for one useless member of the group.
          • jvanderbot49 minutes ago
            I can agree with that.<p>But don&#x27;t assume it&#x27;s without its own controversy. Maybe the point of civilization is to allow people to help eachother by providing safeguards against treachery.<p>Maybe they should be forced to help eachother under threat of violence. There&#x27;s a massive spectrum of &quot;solutions&quot; between those two, and UBI could be considered pretty close to forcing, depending on how it&#x27;s implemented.<p>It&#x27;s not pedantry or technicalities, a lasting system needs to benefit people <i>and</i> support &#x2F; build shared principles. Ideally it&#x27;d support the principles that enabled it in the first place.
          • yoz-y1 hour ago
            The purpose of civilisation (or rather, why it exists in first place) is that “civilized” peoples managed to survive longer and reproduce more and produce better means to take over the land of those who didn’t adopt technology.<p>Now we are going to see if there is a limit or not. Or if AI changes the game (the dystopian end game is a small amount of people controlling all the production and getting rid of the rest by one way or another)
      • sdeframond46 minutes ago
        &gt; If we create enough wealth to give them the income without the truck driving... We won? That&#x27;s the goal here. That&#x27;s what the economy is _for_.<p>Assuming such wealth is created by the autonomous trucks replacing said drivers, for the same number of trucks, that would mean we now have to pay for 1 autonomous truck + 1 idle driver. This is more expensive than a regular truck driven by someone.<p>So either the number of truck increase dramatically or the replaced truckers find another value-creating occupation (or both).
        • mathgeek39 minutes ago
          Let&#x27;s not forget that in a functioning economy, living and consuming goods _is_ value-creating.
          • sdeframond32 minutes ago
            I don&#x27;t understand. Could you elaborate?
            • mathgeek24 minutes ago
              <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Value_of_a_statistical_life" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Value_of_a_statistical_life</a>
      • NoidFonsense1 hour ago
        Workers lose all political leverage in that situation. It&#x27;s a short-term solution
        • le-mark1 hour ago
          On the contrary, since truckers also mostly all own guns, they have a lot of political leverage. Everyone knows this; in the US at least. Andrew Wang stated as much in a cnbc interview a few months ago.
          • cousin_it8 minutes ago
            If humans lost economic leverage (no jobs) but kept military leverage (usefulness as soldiers), that&#x27;d probably be utopia. We could all be a leisure class like the aristocrats of the past, and could defend that state of affairs.<p>Unfortunately we aren&#x27;t in that world. AI+robots will deprive humans of both economic and military leverage. Most likely, powerful &quot;blobs&quot; of a few owner humans + a lot of automation will inherit the Earth and kick most humans to the curb.
          • krapp1 hour ago
            &gt;On the contrary, since truckers also mostly all own guns, they have a lot of political leverage. Everyone knows this; in the US at least.<p>What everyone knows is that American gun owners voted in the system that&#x27;s eating them alive and that they don&#x27;t care as long as that system doesn&#x27;t touch their guns.<p>So they can just keep shooting watermelons in their backyards and being keyboard warriors on the internet, for as much as their &quot;leverage&quot; matters.
        • bjornsing1 hour ago
          People keep saying that. But they can still vote.
    • erkt32 minutes ago
      AI truck drivers won’t even replace the trucker in the cab of a Coca-Cola truck, let alone a wide load.
    • interactivecode52 minutes ago
      Yes this is a good idea. Taxing AI might also slightly slowdown the speed of this happening because it dampens the economic incentive a bit.
    • JKCalhoun1 hour ago
      More often a dark and cynical way to kill off: all government assistance, social security, Medicare, Medicaid…
    • le-mark1 hour ago
      Some trucking is warehouse to warehouse, but a lot of trucking is warehouse to point or point to point where the points are building without a loading dock, or specialized equipment is required to load unload; fork lifts, conveyer systems etc. ok your truck can drive, if 50% of deliveries or pickup’s require a human, what is the gain? Surely there are workarounds like Uber for forklifts, but that’s “extra” capability that doesn’t exist yet.<p>&gt; Using taxes on AI revenue to facilitate<p>This why Altman et al talk about taxing ai agents. Then they aren’t paying for it, but their customers are. We should all keep in mind that the oligarchs have never willing shared the benefit of decades of productivity gains. Why would they now?
      • codazoda49 minutes ago
        It seems like truck drivers don’t do the unloading job you’re talking about. The receiving company does it.<p>That’s not always the case, I know that small trucks like plumbing supply houses, hardware stores, and sod companies will pull the pallet from the truck for you, but I would guess that isn’t typically for your average 18-wheeler.
    • jrmg1 hour ago
      What is “AI revenue” here?
    • carlosjobim1 hour ago
      &gt; there is realistically no way to retrain this cohort<p>Certainly, they&#x27;re after all just stupid truckers and not supremely intelligent hackers. I mean, do they even know how to sudo their Kubernetes!?
      • phoghed1 hour ago
        Well good luck turning them all into welders and pipe fitters and whatnot<p>I’m sure they’ll love starting from scratch as basically an apprentice making beans compared to their previous wage
        • carlosjobim58 minutes ago
          Somewhere it doesn&#x27;t occur to you that most people have other skills than doing exactly their day job at a basic level? And that skills can be transfered to other occupations?<p>Just like a programmer can switch between programming languages without having to re-learn all basic concepts of computing, so people with other occupations can transfer a large part of their knowledge to other sectors.<p>But that can be hard to grasp in a world where every person is either a supremely intelligent hacker or a trucker or &quot;welder and pipe fitter and whatnot&quot;.
    • conartist62 hours ago
      That&#x27;s just unrealistic. They&#x27;ll strike and shut down all shipping before they just roll over
      • turbobutton1 hour ago
        Striking in the face of automation often just accelerates the automation. Ask the McDonald&#x27;s cashiers...
        • conartist61 hour ago
          McDonalds isn&#x27;t critical to the economy staying running like trucking is.
      • Kevin_Flynn1 hour ago
        I was thinking that everyone would suddenly become a &quot;truck driver&quot; overnight, just so they can sign up for the free money.<p>We need to keep in mind the scope and scale of the environments in which this UBI experiment is being tried in.<p>The temporary success or failure of the UBI experiment seems entirely dependent on whether the country is a major currency, a manufacturing base, a service oriented economy, etc, etc, etc. and it doesn&#x27;t seem likely to work for everyone, or for any individual small nation for an indefinite period of time.<p>&gt; there is realistically no way to retrain this cohort. [truck drivers]<p>I disagree. They had to attend class and pass a test to get a CDL. They were trained to drive a truck, they can be trained to perform another task. Truck drivers are not lobotomized.
        • thunky1 hour ago
          &gt; I was thinking that everyone would suddenly become a &quot;truck driver&quot; overnight, just so they can sign up for the free money.<p>The U in UBI stands for universal. That means that former truck drivers (aka the unemployed) get it but also everyone else to include CEOs making millions. The expectation is that those with other income will give back their UBI and then some via taxes.<p>This is better than policies that create stupid incentives like in your example.
          • Kevin_Flynn1 hour ago
            &gt; This is better than policies that create stupid incentives like in your example.<p>I wasn&#x27;t aware that I promoted a policy. Can you point it out for me ?
        • alistairSH1 hour ago
          They aren&#x27;t, but if you look at retraining programs in coal country, you don&#x27;t see a whole lot of success. So, while I&#x27;m sure mass retraining is theoretically possible, do we examples of where it&#x27;s actually worked?<p>Related point - if the truck drivers aren&#x27;t where the new jobs are located, that doesn&#x27;t work. We should subsidize their move (via increased taxes on AI or corporations or whatever) but like WV, we probably won&#x27;t. Assuming they even want to move.
          • Kevin_Flynn1 hour ago
            You don&#x27;t need to do anything to retrain someone.<p>You let them retrain themselves.<p>People in &quot;coal country&quot; who can&#x27;t get a job in a mine, do something other than mining. Hunger is a powerful motivator.<p>A $10 a month cell phone plan is all it takes to get 24&#x2F;7 access to all the worlds information, and AI&#x27;s intelligent queries into it.<p>And yes, you will have millions who never learn how to use said information to their own benefit, but we&#x27;ve known for awhile that poverty is a behaviorial problem as much as it is a resource problem.
            • interactivecode38 minutes ago
              Maybe the companies firing people or shutting down operations somewhere aren’t properly motivated to successfully retrain the people they are replacing? Lets lock up the CEO without food until they come up with an acceptable solution. I hear hunger is a powerful motivator.
              • Kevin_Flynn22 minutes ago
                &gt; Maybe the companies firing people or shutting down operations somewhere aren’t properly motivated to successfully retrain the people they are replacing?<p>No, at least not in the US.<p>A corporation has a primary fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders.<p>Every promise ever made by a corporation to an employee or customer was just &quot;so much bullshit, subject to change&quot; in order to fulfill their legal obligation to the shareholders.<p>It&#x27;s always been this way, no matter how many employees or workers actually believed said promises.<p>People still think the grocery store sells food as well, when the reality is that the nutrients are removed and sold elsewhere, reducing satiety, increasing sales due to intentional malnutrition.<p>And your doctor isn&#x27;t sending you down the road to wellness when he prescribes you GLP1 antagonists instead of a proper diet and exercise.<p>The cold hard truths of reality.<p>&quot;Everybody Needs a Thneed&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=tE2uVuBUdp4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=tE2uVuBUdp4</a>
            • alistairSH1 hour ago
              Sure, let&#x27;s blame the economically displaced, not the billionaires who displaced them. Giving some serious &quot;she wore a short skirt and had it coming&quot; vibes.
              • Kevin_Flynn49 minutes ago
                I don&#x27;t see where I blamed anyone. Can you point it out ?<p>Did you mean the part where I said millions will never use AI to benefit themselves ?<p>We&#x27;ve had libraries for centuries. Millions chose not to use those as well, because they wanted a beer instead.<p>Its normal human behavior.<p>The proverb &quot;You can lead a horse to water, but you can&#x27;t make him drink&quot; exists for this reason.
            • krapp55 minutes ago
              &gt;People in &quot;coal country&quot; who can&#x27;t get a job in a mine, do something other than mining. Hunger is a powerful motivator.<p>No they don&#x27;t, they vote for someone to open up the mines again and keep the immigrants away.
              • Kevin_Flynn51 minutes ago
                Well, perhaps AI will teach them that political promises are no match for economic reality.
        • regularfry1 hour ago
          &gt; I disagree. They had to attend class and pass a test to get a CDL. They were trained to drive a truck, they can be trained to perform another task. Truck drivers are not lobotomized.<p>I don&#x27;t think the difficulty is with the drivers, more with the logistics of retraining them all at once. As a cohort they came up through their class and training nicely spread out over, what, a 40 year period? Making sure there are that many training spaces for other trades over a much more condensed period is non-trivial.
          • Kevin_Flynn1 hour ago
            &gt; I don&#x27;t think the difficulty is with the drivers, more with the logistics of retraining them all at once.<p>The only events that happen &quot;all at once&quot; are in our heads as hypotheticals.<p>In the real world, every change takes time to propagate.<p>It stands to reason, all of the &quot;experts&quot; of the world are going to be in less demand than they were before, because some percentage of people, will replace them with AI, for some percentage of tasks.<p>Stated another way, each of us will be consulting with AI more, and assigning some number of tasks to a non-expert, with the help of expertise from AI, and talking to human experts less frequently.<p>Interactions will decrease in frequency. In the commercial space, this means transactions will decrease in number and amount. This is &quot;bad&quot; for everyone, in the financial sense. Corporations lose revenues, governments lose revenues, employees get pay cuts, etc.<p>But downward trajectories on financial charts have been a problem for every fiat based economy we know of, long before AI came into the picture. The only thing people universally agree upon when sales, taxes, salaries, etc start going down, is that &quot;confusion&quot; is the first response, followed shortly by &quot;panic&quot;, followed by &quot;doing something to fix it&quot; followed by &quot;pretending it worked, even if it didn&#x27;t.&quot;<p>Maybe AI will teach the world what to do when the charts turn down instead of up.<p>Infinite growth doesn&#x27;t exist in a closed ecosystem, and we arent expanding into space yet.<p>For decades magazines and other media have promoted the idea that some day, technology will relieve us of the base burden of existence, and free us to do all those wonderful leisure activities we enjoy.<p>Now that AI seems to be able to deliver on the promise, the thing we seem to fear the most is the deflation of our own egos.<p>A conversation with an AI agent carries as little as $0.00 transactional cost, with a few cents in electricity expense, after the small fixed capital outlay for the computer.<p>A conversation with a consultant costs $200 an hour, and benefits taxing authorities, gas stations, phone companies, etc etc etc.<p>Again, it stands to reason, if we replace an expensive form of communication, with one that is almost free, that people are going to use it, and all those &quot;expenses&quot; they save on, were someone elses income.<p>The end game ... most of us will adapt, and some of us will self destruct during that process, and in 1 or 2 generations, everything will be &quot;normal&quot; again, and AI will be taken for granted, and we&#x27;ll all be worrying about the new crisis.<p>Lets all remember, &quot;the economy&quot; as studied by economists, is the study of human behavior at its core, and its generally agreed that the human animals greatest natural defense is its intelligence and ability to adapt to its environment.<p>Keep calm. Carry on. This isn&#x27;t a scarcity problem. It&#x27;s an abundance problem.
        • turbobutton1 hour ago
          its not about their capabilities. It&#x27;s that there just aren&#x27;t six million vacant jobs...
          • Den_VR1 hour ago
            Jobs are not a zero sum equation. Six million unemployed workers, means six million units of production looking for an outlet that was not previously feasible due to a shortage of available labor
            • jvanderbot1 hour ago
              The economic perspective vs the personal one.<p>Will we say the same thing about the 4 million software jobs? When we&#x27;re doing landscaping work in our 40s for 1&#x2F;10 our past salary is that improved economic efficiency at its finest?
              • Den_VR1 hour ago
                Sorry, spatial intelligence and embodiment is coming for those jobs too. But if you are making “a 10x salary” today then it’s probably a good idea to prepare for an early retirement. An opportunity never afforded to the old folks currently doing those 1x salary jobs.
                • jvanderbot44 minutes ago
                  Entirely defensible. My only caveat is that 100% automation is a myth that ignores second order effects. Labor prices change in response to demand, just like raw materials. Some jobs will be cheaper for people to do, and much of the &quot;economy&quot; might end up friends and family cooperation.
              • Kevin_Flynn1 hour ago
                As a software engineer who is working on retiring to a small farm somewhere, I have no problem with the prospect of living on 10% of my former income, assuming, the other 90% of my income used to be spent on obtaining resources that I now can obtain for myself or no longer need.<p>In other words, if I can do more for myself, I require less interaction with commercial and governmental institutions.<p>Since money is a form of communication, if I am conducting fewer financial transactions because I am solving problems on my own, my standard of living doesn&#x27;t necessarily decline with reduced income.
            • alistairSH1 hour ago
              Long term, sure, but those newly-feasible jobs don&#x27;t pop into existence in a day, or even a year. Short term, they flood the labor market and suppress wages.
  • motionlessveloc4 hours ago
    This doesn&#x27;t sound terribly different from eg Alaska&#x27;s Permanent Fund payouts? The main difference seems to be that PF payments fluctuate a lot, while the Marshalls plan seems to be a fixed, predictable sum.
    • JKCalhoun1 hour ago
      I would think also, Native Americans (Indians) in the U.S.
    • _doctor_love3 hours ago
      It is very similar but works differently. Also the two programs do not have the same intent.<p>The US has a Compact of Free Assocation (COFA) with the Marshall Islands, which provides a lot of the funds for this. Versus Alaska where it is paid for by natural resource extraction. All that said, it <i>is</i> the government of the Marshall Islands making the decision to pay it out this way.<p>From the US point of view, this is a good program because it incentivizes people from the Marshall Islands to stay put rather than emigrate to the US mainland (which they have a right to do under the COFA).
      • derektank2 hours ago
        &gt;From the US point of view, this is a good program because it incentivizes people from the Marshall Islands to stay put rather than emigrate to the US mainland<p>Why is this a good thing? Naively, as an American citizen, I would rather have someone emigrate and work in America where they can provide additional labor to the mainland economy
        • TFNA2 hours ago
          The US is competing with China in the Pacific. Keeping those islands healthily populated by USA-sympathizers helps maintains overall US influence in the region.
        • _heimdall2 hours ago
          The Marshall Islands are of military importance, we don&#x27;t squat in the island chain for economic gain.
          • derektank1 hour ago
            This seems like a non sequitur? The US military can staff its own bases without relying upon native labor, as it does in places like Diego Garcia
            • jvanderbot1 hour ago
              As said above, you want the population (the ones that run the government right?) to stay there and happy, so that the bases are welcome and symbolic.
        • jlawrence68091 hour ago
          Presumably if AI reaches it&#x27;s potential there might not be a need for immigrants labor.
          • derektank1 hour ago
            I am very confident that this has not historically been, and is not today, a major or minor consideration in US foreign policymaking
  • backhold2 hours ago
    While what&#x27;s good for a tiny island might not be good for the gander, I like the attached cost analysis of a negative income tax. The author points out that this might be a more practical way to deliver a basic income, and more amenable to both sides of the argument.<p>And at more or less no greater cost than the welfare system at time of writing. I wonder how the numbers would shake out now?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;martin-farley.medium.com&#x2F;how-a-negative-income-tax-could-more-effectively-deliver-a-basic-income-ec6e14d24c22" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;martin-farley.medium.com&#x2F;how-a-negative-income-tax-c...</a>
    • koolba2 hours ago
      &gt; The author points out that this might be a more practical way to deliver a basic income, and more amenable to both sides of the argument.<p>We almost have that with the earned income tax credit. The catch is you have to work: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irs.gov&#x2F;credits-deductions&#x2F;individuals&#x2F;earned-income-tax-credit-eitc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irs.gov&#x2F;credits-deductions&#x2F;individuals&#x2F;earned-in...</a>
    • WithinReason2 hours ago
      negative income tax and universal basic income are mathematically equivalent.
      • luckylion2 hours ago
        If you have a &quot;pure&quot; UBI that is paid out, and you create 0 taxable value, you receive 100% of UBI.<p>If you have negative income tax and you create 0 taxable value, how much do you receive?
        • WithinReason2 hours ago
          The same amount you would on UBI. As I said, it&#x27;s the same thing. Both are a linear function of your income. a*(income)+b
    • _heimdall2 hours ago
      It can be called whatever someone wants and it can be delivered various ways, but its still functionally the same thing.<p>Headlines latch on to the term UBI, and people largely are parrots so they argue about UBI specifically as well, but at the end of the day the question is whether its a good and sustainable idea for the government to decide what our basic necessities are then pay us so we can buy them.
      • defrost2 hours ago
        In practice it can be even more fine grained:<p>&gt; then pay us so we can buy them.<p>If a government pays out money then people can buy whatever they chose, not just food, clothing, and shelter.<p>Some governments have implemented schemes that issue variations on constrained cards (not generic money) that can <i>only</i> be used to obtain &quot;necessities&quot;
        • _heimdall2 hours ago
          You just mean food stamps, right? We already have that in the US.<p>I often see people in my area chest that program. I know when food stamps were sent out or refilled because multiple people are at Walmart with a cart full of sodas. They buy as many as they can and sell it to friends or family to have the cash instead.
          • jghn59 minutes ago
            I often see people in my area buy organic produce from local small businesses at the farmers market. So I suppose my anecdote balances out yours?
          • defrost2 hours ago
            &gt; You just mean food stamps, right?<p>A variation of.<p>&gt; We already have that in the US.<p>Dandy. It&#x27;s different to cash.<p>&gt; because multiple people are at Walmart with a cart full of sodas. They buy as many as they can and sell it to friends or family to have the cash instead.<p>Some do that, yes - not everybody can (eg: small communities, limited travel, few people with cash that want to buy basics)
          • trismus1 hour ago
            Are you also angry that Walmart bought those things and is selling them on?
      • krapp2 hours ago
        If my tax dollars have to pay for war crimes and the Epstein memorial ballroom then I&#x27;d happily pay for people to be able to eat, drink and live. I sure as hell don&#x27;t trust corporations and the &quot;free market&quot; to ensure the common welfare.<p>I believe that governments have an obligation to their citizens beyond simply taxation and violence, and that the social contract goes both ways. I understand that I&#x27;m in the minority of Americans in this belief.
        • _heimdall2 hours ago
          The government should have an obligation to not waste our money. Let&#x27;s start with balancing the budget, letting elected Congress again hold the purse stings and war responsibilities, then we can talk about more spending.<p>I can&#x27;t justify more debt spending because we already waste money on stuff I disagree with.
          • no-name-here1 hour ago
            The US has <i>by far</i> the lowest spending (fed + state + local) among the major advanced economies in the world. [1]<p>The US <i>also</i> has <i>by far</i> the lowest taxes (fed + state + local) among them too; in fact, the US could have <i>raised</i> taxes by more than 15% and still been lowest. [2]<p>Regardless, if someone does believe spending should be cut:<p>A) What specifically should be cut, and<p>B) What % of the 11.5T&#x2F;y [3] gov spending does it add up to?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;Publications&#x2F;WEO&#x2F;weo-database&#x2F;2025&#x2F;April&#x2F;weo-report?c=156,132,134,136,158,112,111,&amp;s=GGX_NGDP,&amp;sy=2025&amp;ey=2025&amp;ssd=1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;Publications&#x2F;WEO&#x2F;weo-database&#x2F;2025&#x2F;Ap...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;Publications&#x2F;WEO&#x2F;weo-database&#x2F;2025&#x2F;april&#x2F;weo-report?c=156,132,134,136,158,112,111,&amp;s=GGR_NGDP,&amp;sy=2025&amp;ey=2025&amp;ssd=1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;Publications&#x2F;WEO&#x2F;weo-database&#x2F;2025&#x2F;ap...</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bea.gov&#x2F;data&#x2F;government&#x2F;receipts-and-expenditures" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bea.gov&#x2F;data&#x2F;government&#x2F;receipts-and-expenditure...</a>
          • jghn57 minutes ago
            Let’s start by cutting the military budget (including all the ways they indirectly fund the military) by at least half
          • krapp1 hour ago
            In theory I agree with you.<p>In practice every time someone goes to Washington to &quot;clean house&quot; the first things to get gutted are welfare and funding for science and research, because unfortunately a lot of Americans consider all of that to be waste. Never the military, never the police, never the pork.
            • intrasight1 hour ago
              If states can require balanced budgets, I see no reason why the federal government can&#x27;t be required to as well
              • krapp1 hour ago
                I&#x27;m not arguing that the federal government can&#x27;t be required to balance the budget. I&#x27;m arguing that cutting social spending and science and research in order to balance the budget should not be allowed, and that social spending shouldn&#x27;t be contingent on a balanced budget.
              • jghn57 minutes ago
                That’s not at all the point they raised?
  • 1970-01-011 hour ago
    One caveat I don&#x27;t think they understand, especially within a tropical environment, is retirees. Anywhere resembling FL and handing UBI out will slowly become flooded with old couples and retirees. Florida 2.0 if you will.
    • interactivecode29 minutes ago
      Also known as people and leisure. Why is that so bad? Sounds pretty great to me.<p>Can’t wait to retire and do all the things I enjoy doing.
    • jghn1 hour ago
      I believe it only applies to resident citizens, which is an easy way to avoid freeloaders
  • DivingForGold1 hour ago
    Paid for by the drug cartels ? UBI has to be paid for somehow, are there massive natural resources being sold off ?
    • pizzaiolo1 hour ago
      There are plenty of billionaires barely taxed at the moment
      • NoidFonsense1 hour ago
        Someone should survey our lands to find naturally-occuring billionaires to exploit. Billionaires are the next oil- green oil if you will! They practicially grow on trees.
  • smitty1e58 minutes ago
    I wish them well, but really, really hope that people don&#x27;t lose sight of the non-scalability of this.<p>The freeloader problem will devour this when some fanatic tries with a substantial population.
    • interactivecode25 minutes ago
      If less people need to work while there is enough money to go around. What makes them freeloaders? Do you think children are freeloaders? What about retirees or veterans or disabled people?
  • rambambram3 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • no-name-here3 hours ago
      &gt; <i>please put back the meaning of words</i><p>Which word(s)? From the reports I&#x27;ve seen, it&#x27;s available to all citizens, and it&#x27;s one of the 2 kinds of UBI. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income</a><p><i>Edit: LoganDark4 replied but I got an error when submitting my reply to them, so including here:</i><p>&gt; <i>Even the smallest crappiest studios in most areas exceed $800&#x2F;mo. Then you also have utilities and food before you even approach comfortable living.</i><p>Multiple percent of the population in the small Pacific country we&#x27;re discussing lives on &lt;$3&#x2F;day (&lt;$90&#x2F;mo).<p>&gt; <i>Universal basic income means something you can live on.… UBI means you don&#x27;t need external support to sustain comfortable living. That&#x27;s its entire purpose.</i><p>From the very first paragraph of the link you replied to: &quot;If the level is sufficient to meet a person&#x27;s basic needs (i.e., at or above the poverty line), it is considered a full basic income; if it is less than that amount, it is called a partial basic income.&quot;
      • caminante3 hours ago
        *Partial UBI with only $800&#x2F;year<p>Details aren&#x27;t as sexy as the headline would lead one to believe.
        • no-name-here2 hours ago
          Multiple percent of the population lives on less than $3&#x2F;day.<p>This UBI is 37% of the poverty line, and the % living in poverty has dropped from 7.2% to 1.3%. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;documents1.worldbank.org&#x2F;curated&#x2F;en&#x2F;099706304212518140&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;IDU-9b70350f-0da1-4aa5-879c-f7e1a07cb33f.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;documents1.worldbank.org&#x2F;curated&#x2F;en&#x2F;0997063042125181...</a>
          • _heimdall2 hours ago
            That would seem to imply that even those at the poverty line can already afford 3x the basic necessities.
      • gus_massa3 hours ago
        This page <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wage.is&#x2F;marshall-islands&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wage.is&#x2F;marshall-islands&#x2F;</a> claims the average is US$168000 per year and the median US$9600 per year. [My guess is that the poverty line is close to US$5000 per year, probably higher.] This program adds US$800 per year. So it&#x27;s a &quot;universal partial basic income&quot; instead of a &quot;universal total basic income&quot;.<p>In all the discussion I remember, &quot;universal basic income&quot; == &quot;universal total basic income&quot; but perhaps I was not paying too much attention.
        • no-name-here2 hours ago
          Multiple % of the population live on &lt;$3&#x2F;day.<p>This payment is 37% of the poverty line. Poverty has been reduced from 7.2% to 1.3%. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;documents1.worldbank.org&#x2F;curated&#x2F;en&#x2F;099706304212518140&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;IDU-9b70350f-0da1-4aa5-879c-f7e1a07cb33f.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;documents1.worldbank.org&#x2F;curated&#x2F;en&#x2F;0997063042125181...</a>
      • rambambram3 hours ago
        <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;universal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;universa...</a>
        • no-name-here2 hours ago
          Your link is to the term universal. From the reporting, this payment goes to all citizens including children. Perhaps you could more clearly state your objection?
          • rambambram2 hours ago
            Come on, read it again. You know what the word &#x27;universal&#x27; means, so stop playing stupid.
            • no-name-here1 hour ago
              No, I don&#x27;t know what you mean - is your objection that people who aren&#x27;t from the Marshall Islands don&#x27;t receive it? UBI going to citizens as opposed to others seems to be very common: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income</a> And there is no need for insults.
      • rambambram2 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • no-name-here1 hour ago
          No, I don&#x27;t know what you mean - is your objection that people who aren&#x27;t from the Marshall Islands don&#x27;t receive it? UBI going to citizens as opposed to others seems to be very common: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_basic_income</a> And there is no need for insults.