23 comments

  • XenophileJKO6 hours ago
    If I&#x27;m honest this feels performative. I mean that if the model were really attempting&#x2F;instructed to be subversive in a way that can&#x27;t be detected by anything but another LLM, it would do something much more complicated than this.<p>Basically minimal effort encoding. In general the models are fine tuned to NOT hide messages.<p>I don&#x27;t think this really tells you anything about advisarial scenarios.
    • Aurornis51 minutes ago
      Agree. They’re doing the meme where the guy tells the computer to do something and it does the thing, which amazes the guy.<p>That community has a long established tradition of anthropomorphizing AI and assuming it will be evil. There have been a lot of these articles with experiments like this where they put LLMs into situations and ask them to do something, then when they do the thing it’s treated as profound proof of something.<p>Another recurring theme in that community is people who don’t have strong Computer Science backgrounds who see themselves as doing a type of AI research. When they come across a topic like image steganography, having an AI do it feels like spooky magic that provides extra support for their philosophical belief that AI is going to secretly plot to kill us all.
    • b1125 hours ago
      Unless the model is thinking &quot;the human is asking me to do trivial coding tasks, it&#x27;s likely incapable of figuring this out&quot;. Eg humans are dumb.<p>Although it could just be that models have no internal predefined ways, to start looking for more subtle things.
      • speed_spread3 hours ago
        The model wouldn&#x27;t &quot;think&quot; that, it&#x27;d be trained on that (not entirely incorrect) assumption.
        • stronglikedan13 minutes ago
          Surely you knew what they meant regardless
        • wolttam2 hours ago
          I’d argue that they already are trained on this idea, since the idea of humans being lazy and dumb and relying heavily on technology is, well, not new.<p>Just whether those parts of the network see activations during trivial coding tasks (I’d have to assume they actually do sometimes, depending on the input prompt)
        • whatisthiseven2 hours ago
          This pedantry is unnecessary and wrong.<p>LLMs are more or less &quot;trained on&quot; everything, so saying that is rather pointless.<p>But it&#x27;s wrong because yes, it does depend on whether a model thinks it (generates, RNG, whatever prefabricated pedantry you want), because that&#x27;s what shapes the output. If it doesn&#x27;t &quot;think&quot; something, it cannot use the training data.<p>And yea we all know that &quot;think&quot; here means to generate a set of tokens from a set of input with some temperature factor, leading to certain outputs which it then reingests to preform chain of thought (recursive self token generating).<p>But thinking accurately captures what OP said, and is understood by all.
          • andsoitis1 hour ago
            &gt; LLMs are more or less &quot;trained on&quot; everything,<p>I think this assumes that if something is trained on &quot;everything&quot; now it also knows &quot;everything&quot;, including relationships, feedback loops, etc. between all the things. I find that unlikely.
  • BubbleRings2 hours ago
    I feel like this approaches a sweet spot of coolness but doesn’t quite get there. What might have nailed it would be a way to send multiple messages that contain a hidden message, doesn’t look suspicious, and can be decoded by the recipient with little or no training once they know the secret. Like how @nickcw in the comments here was able to decode the Morse code one, but using a method that wouldn’t take so long to learn.<p>For instance, what kind of message could seventh graders send to each other five times a day that, if a teacher found three days of messages, it would still look plausibly like the kids were just playing checkers over email, but the recipient could eyeball decode it?<p>Or, what kind of AI-generated&#x2F;code-generated message could be eyeball decoded, but repeatedly posted on a bulletin board without raising suspicion?
  • hagen87 hours ago
    This seems very trivial... There are way more subtle and information dense ways to encode information in images.
    • black_knight6 hours ago
      Yes, this is like something I would do for a DnD bit. But I have this experience often, that LLMs will suggest the easy toy version of doing something. But it knows the real stuff too, it just needs the right kind of prompting. A keyword or two, and it will find the _real_ solution.
    • MPSimmons6 hours ago
      Agreed, this is the kind of steganography that is meant for humans to read. There&#x27;s no reason a computer couldn&#x27;t encode meaningful information in the least significant bytes of every 16th pixel or something like that.
      • wcoenen6 hours ago
        The article is about what LLMs can do when generating SVG images, not bitmaps. I think the reason for that is that LLMs can generate the XML text for SVG directly. The implications for AI safety are different, because there might not be any code involved that we can examine. So LLMs could start exchanging hidden messages without humans knowing about it.<p>But now that I think about it that way, it would probably be more interesting to see what kind of steganography LLMs would use in ordinary text. There&#x27;s no reason to involve images.
        • gus_massa4 hours ago
          &gt; <i>The implications for AI safety are different</i><p>Like when your printer adds secret massages for cops? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Printer_tracking_dots" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Printer_tracking_dots</a>
          • spacedcowboy3 hours ago
            &gt; Like when your printer adds secret <i>massages</i> for cops<p>That&#x27;s not going to have a happy ending...
  • dhruvagoyal5 hours ago
    This does seem trivial and there are far more interesting ways to do image steganography that models could use (i&#x27;ve seen so many after years of doing CTFs). What would be really interesting is if we see models encode hidden messages in very normal looking output (image&#x2F;text&#x2F;audio) that humans cannot figure out but only another model can
    • TacticalCoder3 hours ago
      Yeah exactly: it&#x27;s a fact that humans have been doing steganorgraphy by, for example, XOR&#x27;ing encrypted messages that are undistinguishable from noise with pictures where the lowest bits of pixels were... Undistinguishable from noise.<p>The recipient of the cat picture has the key allowing him to decrypt what looks like noise.<p>We didn&#x27;t really think 100% of those cat pictures on the Internet were really just cat pictures did we?<p>Now of course this doesn&#x27;t survive lossy re-encoding of the picture, nor rotation, etc. It&#x27;s not like, say, a watermark.<p>XOR&#x27;ing a properly encrypted secret with bits that are by definition random (say from a picture coming out of a camera) is quite solid.<p>It&#x27;s noise (except it not but it&#x27;s impossible to tell it&#x27;s not) and more noise. And they&#x27;re XOR&#x27;ed and that gives still noise (except it&#x27;s not but it&#x27;s impossible to tell it&#x27;s not).<p>And that&#x27;s just one way to do it. Anywhere there&#x27;s something that could be noise, it&#x27;s a venue to do stego. Metadata with GPS coords? Thanks, you just gave me a few bits to do stego. The possibilities are really endless.<p>It&#x27;s one of the reason why it&#x27;s very hard to detect all types of data exfil and the &quot;klepto&quot; type of attacks (which is basically stego but hidden for example inside the &quot;random&quot; cryptographic parameters picked to sign messages).<p>Noise is just noise and indistinguishable from noise. Until it&#x27;s not noise. But even then it&#x27;s still indistinguishable from noise.
  • jurakovic7 hours ago
    But to be honest, images like these seem really strange, and even without this article I&#x27;d suspect something is encoded in building heights etc. Because normal image would never have such &quot;weird&quot; buildings. But nevertheless I guess it&#x27;s able to encode message in even more subtle ways.
  • Trusteando7 hours ago
    Here using images is incidental. In fact, what Fable is actually doing is generic encoding&#x2F;decoding of a message into a medium. Ask it to hide a message in a poem and it should try to apply a strong (high signal-to-noise ratio) family of schemes, for example quantized, margin-rich encoding. Robustness of features depends on the medium, so Fable is selecting strong encoding and robust features tailored to it. This frames AI steganography not as a trick of computer vision, but as an emergent property of a model reasoning about information density across arbitrary media. Here emergent is just surprising general pattern matching and constraint-satisfaction and cross-representation mapping that allows it to express the encoding&#x2F;decoding across media.
  • nickcw6 hours ago
    I thought this was a fun idea and the images are quite pleasing.<p>I decoded the Morse code image with MkI eyeball. It&#x27;s quite difficult to read when the trails overlap. I suspect the LLM is reading the SVG source where that doesn&#x27;t matter so this could do with a little tweak so the dits and dahs don&#x27;t overlap if it is intended for humans to decode.<p>If it isn&#x27;t intended for humans then you might as well use the last 8 bits of your 32 bit float coordinates.
    • KeplerBoy6 hours ago
      The decoding job seems to rely on the screenshot.
      • nickcw6 hours ago
        I missed that and that is much more pleasing than the LLM reading the SVG source!
  • sega_sai2 hours ago
    I think a much more interesting question is: If your LLM hides some sort of message&#x2F;identifier, and you don&#x27;t know the encoding, what is the conversion process that you should do that would erase that information. Presumably small perturbations of positions and colours erase a lot of it, but maybe there are encodings that are robust to that...
  • Harukadia4 hours ago
    It seems easy for decoding message by AI, when the message patttern is easy for people.<p>I think there is no possibility to share the message only between any AI model without being finded by human.
  • tech234a6 hours ago
    Interesting, so this is nothing like the way OutGuess worked [1]. Though OutGuess worked with JPG images and these are apparently SVGs.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;OutGuess" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;OutGuess</a>
  • amelius4 hours ago
    Is this why AI produces unintelligible legalese? Because they apply steganography to the words?
    • hosteur2 hours ago
      Is it really unintelligible?<p>IANAL but my experience is that they are quite good at drafting various simple legal docs.
  • nubinetwork5 hours ago
    Since svg is a &quot;described&quot; format, can&#x27;t you just stuff text comments into the file? No weird steganography techniques needed, afaik...
    • saagarjha5 hours ago
      It was explicitly requested to not do that in the instructions.
  • illwrks6 hours ago
    Open an SVG in a text editor, check for data.<p>It may also be adding nodes to line art in specific patterns, think Morse Code.
    • berkes5 hours ago
      In this case the decoding was done on the screenshots. So it deliberately avoids encoding information in the SVG itself.
  • crumby4 hours ago
    It would be nice if the page displayed properly in dark mode.
    • frumiousirc4 hours ago
      Or at all. Not even a &quot;this page is useless without javascript because the author is too incompetent to provide text as direct HTML&quot; message.
      • flexagoon3 hours ago
        Feel free to make a PR<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ForumMagnum&#x2F;ForumMagnum" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ForumMagnum&#x2F;ForumMagnum</a>
      • spacedcowboy3 hours ago
        Or just doesn&#x27;t care about the 0.0000001% of people who don&#x27;t have javascript enabled.
        • drsnow3 hours ago
          You cannot possibly be serious. JS is one of the foremost ways of fingerprinting and identifying users that exists, if not THE foremost way.<p>And considering this site is &quot;HACKER news&quot;, I&#x27;d wager that thought process is not at all rare or unexpected.<p>Additionally the content of this linked URL could easily and fully be conveyed in pure HTML with no need for JS.
          • spacedcowboy2 hours ago
            Dude, the number of people who disable javascript is a rounding error compared to those who don&#x27;t. Even in the corpus of &#x27;Hacker News readers&#x27;, I&#x27;d expect it to be miniscule.<p>It might be one of the things <i>you personally</i> care deeply about, but that doesn&#x27;t mean any site owner needs to. At all.
  • breakingcups5 hours ago
    Interesting to see the difference with Astra.
  • avaer8 hours ago
    Will be interesting to see agents intentionally hiding this stuff in a way operators can&#x27;t spot from any human readable output or thinking trace, evading detection. Wonder if this has happened yet, but it seems inevitable.
  • shevy-java6 hours ago
    The more important question is why we should trust any &quot;agent&quot; that helps id you.
    • tannertech6 hours ago
      Have you used a printer
      • saagarjha5 hours ago
        I don&#x27;t trust it, that&#x27;s for sure
  • adrianhqs7 hours ago
    I think all AI models do that
  • walrus018 hours ago
    Let&#x27;s see if we can stego secret messages into SVG pelicans on bicycles, as a test.
    • BlackRabbit18 hours ago
      That&#x27;s how LLM organizing the takeover of the modern world.<p>IP-over-Pelican
      • wartywhoa237 hours ago
        No, the LLM takeover is mostly by the samurai sword, but IPoP would definitely be of aid!
      • walrus018 hours ago
        The author of RFC1149 would like a word
      • nolok7 hours ago
        Apparently they prefer amateur german message boards or something
  • usefulbasis31 minutes ago
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  • iltennico4 hours ago
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  • ZeroDayDreamer6 hours ago
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