13 comments

  • andyjohnson06 hours ago
    The distances and remoteness mentioned in the article are impressive. And is the human need and ingenuity for communication. It reminded me of William Gibson&#x27;s description of 1950s farmers in the US using metal wire fences as radio antennas.<p>In the 70s and 80s (and probably before) in the UK, the BBC used to broadcast occasional &quot;sos messages&quot; [1] prior to the main daily news summaries on FM radio - for people who were away from home and, for whatever reason, uncontactable. They usually related to a relative being dangerously ill. I remember hearing them on my parent&#x27;s car radio on summer camping trips.<p>Obviously the uk is a small and quite densely populated island but, without two way personal communications, some needs were similar to those described in the article. It changed a lot of things.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;swling.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2012&#x2F;09&#x2F;radio-4-and-now-an-urgent-sos-message&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;swling.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2012&#x2F;09&#x2F;radio-4-and-now-an-urgent-so...</a>
    • BoxOfRain5 hours ago
      Honestly I&#x27;m very sad that the AM broadcast bands (for those unaware there&#x27;s two in Europe: long wave and medium wave) have been allowed to fall out of use in the UK without regulatory reform. Fair enough the BBC and commercial broadcasters don&#x27;t want it any more, Absolute Radio stopped on AM because the fine from Ofcom was actually less than running the transmitter estate for example, but there&#x27;s no reason community&#x2F;heritage efforts like Radio Caroline need to be subject to a burdensome licensing regime from an era AM was big business when their band is currently almost dead. In my view we should do the opposite, the whole band should be opened to hobbyist broadcasters for a nominal fee and a power limit of a few hundred watts; it&#x27;s not like most people have the space to put up an aerial that&#x27;ll go very far on AM.<p>It feels very wasteful of a scarce resource to leave this spectrum abandoned, especially when it has interesting properties.
      • jacquesm55 minutes ago
        We will come to regret this. I hope they at least properly mothballed the whole thing and will keep the antennas in good shape because we may well need that capability at some point in the future.
      • sourcecodeplz46 minutes ago
        maybe it is a form of control.<p>if anyone could broadcast to so many so easily, that is considered dangerous nowadays. if there is no one there to receive (no one remembers AM, no AM receivers), you can still broadcast but no one will listen.
    • lelandfe3 hours ago
      &gt; farmers in the US using metal wire fences<p>More yonder <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.atlasobscura.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;barbed-wire-telephone-lines-homesteaders-prairie-america-history" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.atlasobscura.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;barbed-wire-telephone-...</a>
    • tecleandor4 hours ago
      Oh, I remember the equivalent service in National Spanish radio, I think up until the 90s. It was called &quot;Servicio de socorro&quot;.
    • graemep3 hours ago
      The UK is not all that small or all that densely populated. Great Britain is the world&#x27;s ninth largest island. its marginally smaller than Honshu which has a bigger population, and England alone is about the size of Java (which has a bigger population than Russia). I know offhand that it has a lower population density than Sri Lanka<p>Its a long way from even Cornwall to the North of Scotland, and significantly further between the islands.
      • kragen3 minutes ago
        People in Sri Lanka are not the ones exchanging personal messages via AM radio broadcasts. Much of this article is about the province of Chubut <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chubut_Province" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chubut_Province</a> which has a population density of 2.6 people per square kilometer. The UK <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;United_Kingdom" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;United_Kingdom</a> has a population density of 287 people per square kilometer. Scotland <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Scotland" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Scotland</a> has a population density of 71 people per square kilometer. The northernmost district of Scotland, Caithness <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Caithness" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Caithness</a> has a population density of 41 people per square kilometer.<p>41 is not the same order of magnitude as 2.6.<p>In conclusion, from the perspective of the people this article is about, the UK is very small and densely populated.
      • supermatt3 hours ago
        &gt; Its a long way from even Cornwall to the North of Scotland<p>Indeed, driving from Land’s End to John o’Groats is basically the same distance as the longest drive across Texas!
        • sandworm10148 minutes ago
          Google maps says it is a 15-hour drive. That is a long day but still is just a day. It would be akin to Seattle to SF, or Vancouver to Calgary. Most people with cars on the west coast wouldn&#x27;t really blink at such a drive. It is still in that range where one can debate flying v driving in terms of money&#x2F;time&#x2F;pollution.
      • nephihaha2 hours ago
        As I say in the other post, it is unevenly populated (much like Honshu). The thing is that parts of Scotland have been deliberately depopulated by the aristocracy (and to a lesser extent government).
    • eesmith5 hours ago
      I visited a maritime museum which showed a film clip from WW2 about a radio broadcast set up so that merchant sailors could get messages from their family.<p>I am unable to find an online resource with more info, though I know from general reading and from visiting WW2-era museum ships that sailors were listening to radio shows while at sea. I assume it was all shortwave, back in the time when radio dials included city names.
      • Guthwine2 hours ago
        I was reading Moby Dick earlier this year and was surprised that the mail service seemed to be &quot;I am a ship returning to port, I have a bag of letters meant for sailors SOMEWHERE in the ocean, I will give it to this ONE ship and maybe they will cross paths with these sailors&quot;. Curious how often the messages ended up getting to where they needed to go.
    • nephihaha5 hours ago
      The UK is unevenly populated and it certainly isn&#x27;t the one island. In Scotland alone, for example, we have had dozens of inhabited islands varying from one or two people up to thousands. We also have places with low population density due to the Highland Clearances (historical ethnic cleansing) and terrain.
      • andyjohnson05 hours ago
        Thats certainly true, and I enjoy spending time in such places when I can. I was backpacking in Knoydart and on Skye this past summer -- and in many places there was no phone reception, and I was several hours walk from the nearest habitation or road, with nobody knowing quite where I was.<p>As for &quot;small island&quot; - I was trying to make a point about the size of the uk on a global scale, and compared to vast places like the Argentinian campo. But perhaps &quot;island group&quot; or &quot;archipelago&quot; would have been a better choice.
        • nephihaha3 hours ago
          I come from northern Scotland. I&#x27;ve never really thought of it as one island. Even England has some notable ones like the Isle of Wight and Lindisfarne. (Wales and Northern Ireland have Anglesey and Rathlin.)<p>When you get to the Hebrides and Northern Isles, the scales are still pretty big. Most people don&#x27;t realise that Shetland, for example, is a hundred miles from end to end (including Fair Isle).<p>It&#x27;s also the best part of a hundred miles from Inverness to John O&#x27; Groats, and the road is bad beyond Easter Ross. Unlike the Faroe Islands, there has been little attempt to create tunnels... Just small bridges and causeways.<p>The smaller islands can get cut off in storms and power cuts come happen.<p>Knoydart and Moidart only used to be reachable by boat, despite being on the mainland. (You can walk but it&#x27;s not easy.) They were so remote that the Protestant Reformation never reached them.<p>Even in the south west you have to factor in distance. For example, Campbelltown looks close to Glasgow on the map but takes at least three or four hours by bus. Tarbert to Campbelltown is thirty miles. The Isle of Jura to the west takes a long time to get to, unless you have a helicopter. (A shout to Galloway which is as far south as you can get in Scotland, and gets further south than Newcastle upon Tyne, but still has awful roads in many places.)<p>Places like Moidart, Knoydart, Kintyre, Glenelg, and even Cowal and Caithness function a bit like islands despite being on the mainland. Deliveries and utilities are horrible in these areas and they are being discriminated against by private delivery etc (the Royal Mail when it functioned better was a blessing to them.)<p>Of course there are parts of major continents which are much more remote, but these are bad enough. I&#x27;ve spent time in Australia where distances are incredible. Even Tasmania which looks small on the map is slightly smaller than Ireland.
  • hxii5 hours ago
    It&#x27;s interesting to see use-cases like this &quot;in the wild&quot; (as opposed to some hobbyist group trying stuff out).<p>With a little investment, I think Meshtastic&#x2F;Reticulum could do wonders for communities like this. With Argentina being largely flat, even putting up a relatively short mast on the roof of a house should give it a good enough range (~10-30km).
    • jmbwell3 hours ago
      The article is about conventional broadcast, but if two way is interesting, there’s a great project doing digital over HF in rural areas, particularly South America:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rhizomatica.org&#x2F;what-we-do&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rhizomatica.org&#x2F;what-we-do&#x2F;</a><p>Lightweight HF rigs and the Hermes Mercury digital modem:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mercury.hermes.radio&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mercury.hermes.radio&#x2F;</a>
    • D0lapevich3 hours ago
      There is already a group of people working on meshtastic: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mesharg.com.ar&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mesharg.com.ar&#x2F;</a> with an active telegram group.
  • fjd5 hours ago
    Sailing communities have a tradition called &quot;Cruisers&#x27; Net&quot;, some of them having started back in 1950-60. Usually in the morning via VHF different people will take turns speaking and doing parts. They&#x27;ll do segments like weather, arrivals&#x2F;departures, events, buy&#x2F;sell&#x2F;trade, etc.
  • ericol2 hours ago
    I&#x27;m from the area where this happens (My city is actually named in the article).<p>Can confirm that this is, effectively, a staple of normal life around there. Calling it &quot;the first social network&quot; made me chuckle.<p>Younger generations might not be aware of this mostly due to reduced AM radio audiences, but my daughters (3x ~30 yo) do know what this is about.
  • lubujackson58 minutes ago
    Reminds me of barbed wire telephones: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.atlasobscura.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;barbed-wire-telephone-lines-homesteaders-prairie-america-history" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.atlasobscura.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;barbed-wire-telephone-...</a>
  • bookofjoe1 day ago
    <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;gbvnE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;gbvnE</a>
    • hxii5 hours ago
      Or wallhop.io
      • bookofjoe4 hours ago
        <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wallhop.io&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.newyorker.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;2026&#x2F;10&#x2F;19&#x2F;the-first-social-network" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wallhop.io&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.newyorker.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;2026&#x2F;1...</a><p>Thank you!
  • kragen14 minutes ago
    I feel like we ought to be able to do a better job of this kind of thing with computers, without requiring the massive capital investment of a 5G cellular network to cover places 80 kilometers (&quot;50 miles&quot; in medieval units) from the nearest neighbor. These 11 messages from the article:<p><pre><code> For Armando Nahuelquir—his wife, Casilda, communicates to him that she is travelling to the campo and will arrive today. Inosencio Belisle, in Chubut, is advised that his brother Baldobino is sick and hospitalized in General Roca. 11 4867 5309 if he would like to communicate . . . with his niece Malvina. Attention Gómez Roca—we’re waiting for you in Puerto Deseado. For Jorge Sepúlveda in Cajón de Ginebra: Paternoster asks that he get in touch today as soon as possible, at the same number as always. For Jorge Crespo: Ricardo says that tomorrow, Tuesday, he will pass by his house. For Emmanuel Ortega, wherever he is: his sister María wishes him a very happy birthday. She cares about him very much. For Nicolás López, in Estancia La Elenita: his nephew Martín communicates that the four-wheel drive of the van is broken. For Enrique Vega, in Telsen: his mother wishes him a very happy birthday. Over here, everyone is well. Two years and five months since the irreparable physical loss of Fabio Ezequiel Leslie. His parents and siblings miss him and remember him with as much love as the first day. Praying for his eternal rest. Avelino Delgado, of Establecimiento El Calafate, in the region of El Escorial, has lost a Hereford bull. If someone sees it, please notify him on this same channel. For Jorge Pereyra, wherever he is: Jordan Salama, the American he met at Estancia La Adela, in Caleta Valdés, communicates that he wants to find him, if it’s possible to get in touch with the radio station. Whoever hears this, please let him know. </code></pre> are 269 words, 24 words per message, but gzip to 899 bytes, averaging 82 bytes (654 bits) per message, 3.34 bits per word. (In Spanish they might be a little longer, although these English translations are already using some Spanish phrasing.) &quot;Several minutes&quot; of such messages &quot;several times a day&quot; at 150 words per minute might be 1500 words (63 messages) four times a day, some 6000 words (250 messages) per day, which would be 164000 gzipped bits at the same compression ratio as the above. Dividing that by 86400 seconds per day, we get a bit rate of 1.9 bits per second. At this bit rate, each message would take about 6 minutes to transmit if you transmitted one message at a time.<p>To transmit over the horizon as the AM stations do, you&#x27;d have to use similar frequencies: the mediumwave frequencies they do in fact use, or shortwave, which would permit the use of less unwieldy transmitting antennas.<p>So the basic setup would be: you still broadcast all the messages from a single high-powered sender, but you have some kind of analog radio receiver frontend running night and day on, say, 250 milliwatts, with a ferrite loopstick antenna like an AM radio uses. It&#x27;s connected to, say, an STM32F103 (US$1.84, although here in Argentina a Blue Pill costs more like US$12 and probably comes with a clone chip with somewhat poorer analog characteristics) running at 72MHz, sampling the incoming signal at 1Msps and attempting to decode bits from it, referencing its timing to a ±50ppm quartz crystal.<p>The STM32F103x8&#x2F;STM32F103xB dadashit tells me it uses a maximum of 50mA at 3.3 volts, so that&#x27;s another 150 milliwatts. So this is a setup that probably needs about 0.4 watts, 9.6 watt hours per day, or 3000 milliamp hours per day; if you&#x27;re receiving 24&#x2F;7, you probably don&#x27;t want to try to run it off non-rechargeable batteries the way you do with an AM radio, but a small solar panel and an 18650 rechargeable cell should be fine.<p>Or you could use crude time-domain multiplexing: power your receiver up, say, twice an hour for a second or two, at a time that the transmitter knows your receiver will be listening, and power back down if there&#x27;s no message for you.<p>But it would be desirable to also transmit; it allows you to answer those messages without traveling those 80 kilometers to the post office. To get AM-radio sound quality good enough for people to understand speech, you need several <i>thousand</i> bits per second of channel capacity (4kHz at 10dB SNR into C = B lg(1 + S&#x2F;N) gives us 13800 bits per second), and, roughly speaking, several thousand times more transmission power. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lu4aa.org&#x2F;wp&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;LISTADO-AM-ARGENTINA-2020.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lu4aa.org&#x2F;wp&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;LISTADO-...</a> tells us that LU-20 Radio Chubut, one of the radio stations participating in this practice, transmits at &quot;25&#x2F;5&quot; kilowatts, which I think means 25 kilowatts by day, 5 kilowatts by night (that&#x27;s what the same notation means in the LU-4 row, according to <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;es.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;LU4_Radio_Nacional_Patagonia_Argentina" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;es.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;LU4_Radio_Nacional_Patagonia_A...</a>.)<p>If 2 bits per second is enough, you can probably get by with transmitting at 6000 times lower power, which is about 5 watts, or 1 watt at night. Decentralizing transmission incentivizes the use of higher frequencies, because they can use smaller antennas. At the extreme of 30MHz, a quarter-wave groundplane antenna only has to be 2.5 meters tall, and erecting even a 7.5-meter tower antenna seems eminently feasible to do on a shoestring rural sheep-herding budget, since you don&#x27;t have to deal with an HOA. And, if people are willing to cooperate to relay messages (a &quot;mesh network&quot;, although the older term might be &quot;radio relay league&quot;), you can use lower power and get higher bandwidth.<p>The only part of this that would be news to <i>radioaficionados</i> decades ago is the radically lower price and low power of complex modulation schemes, due to cheap microcontrollers.<p>This is, of course, what Rhizomatica, Hermes, and MeshArg are trying to achieve, although MeshArg is using higher frequencies that are not suitable for long-distance communication unless you have a satellite or balloon or something.
  • fennecfoxy5 hours ago
    &gt;Argentina, the world’s eighth-largest country I think this says something about human progress. We haven&#x27;t really pulled it together yet, have we?<p>Through the efforts of many (and yet still few) we have created such amazing technologies. And yet so many are still so poor and without the benefits of modern technology because we&#x27;ve allowed a system (capitalism) to be created where wealth and access to technology accumulates up top and no, it does not really &quot;trickle down&quot;.<p>To me, it really is the saddest thing about human existence and entirely predictable because of how most of our human behaviours are linked to evolutionary processes.<p>It&#x27;s nice to romanticise human emotion and connection in a rugged environment using technology that we consider defunct and for them to be able to live a life that many would consider &quot;more natural&quot;. But then one of them gets sick. Someone who loves, is loved, who creates art and consumes art, who smiles when the petrichor hits their nostrils after a dry Summer. And then they die.<p>I just really wish that things were more equitable because we definitely have enough to go around.
    • jpadkins3 hours ago
      you left out the part where the system (capitalism) is creating the technology that people use and makes their life better.<p>Giving people material goods or technology does make them wealthy. Sometimes it even hurts them <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanprogress.org&#x2F;agricultural-subsidies-in-wealthy-countries-hurt-african-producers&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanprogress.org&#x2F;agricultural-subsidies-in-wealthy-...</a> You have to understand poverty and what causes it before you are able to solve for it. Your colonial &#x2F; dependency mindset will not help.
      • thinkingtoilet2 hours ago
        Was no technology created before capitalism? I once heard someone say it&#x27;s easier for some people to imagine the end of the world before imagining the end of capitalism.
        • dosinga2 hours ago
          Not &quot;created&quot; I think. There were still inventions, but actively looking for the new new thing in order to create new products is somethign that was introduced with capitalism.
          • alphawhisky1 hour ago
            Innovation and capitalism are not mutually inclusive.
      • NackerHughes3 hours ago
        No, labour creates the technology that people use.<p>The system just decides where the wealth goes.<p>Under capitalism, it doesn&#x27;t go to the people who did the labour.
        • nephihaha2 hours ago
          &quot;Under capitalism, it doesn&#x27;t go to the people who did the labour.&quot;<p>Automation is removing the human labour factor rapidly, so that no longer holds true. Karl Marx&#x27;s writings never anticipated cybernetics, transhumanism and genetic engineering despite his followers believing he was some kind of infallible prophet.<p>The machines will build themselves, repair themselves and run themselves.
          • Giefo6ah2 hours ago
            Even in the 19th century you didn&#x27;t need to be a prophet to ponder what will happen when machinery finally becomes fully automated, and what the process of arriving to this state might look like.<p>Indeed this is the main question of Marx&#x27;s work.
          • ShinyLeftPad33 minutes ago
            so wait after you remove the need for manual labor do you go dystopian capitalism where people have no jobs and grow poor, or you distribute &quot;universal high income&quot; and start doing communism with oligarch supreme leaders determining who gets what?
    • kragen1 hour ago
      The problem we have here in Argentina is not capitalism. The problem with Argentina is that we <i>don&#x27;t</i> have capitalism.<p>Capitalist countries like Taiwan, South Korea, and the People&#x27;s Republic of China (!) have gone from being much poorer than we are to being much richer than we are in only a few decades. Meanwhile Perón&#x27;s &quot;third way&quot; between capitalism and communism has left us poor and economically stagnant. We have to constantly struggle against bureaucracy to do anything economically productive, and if that&#x27;s successful, the government confiscates it. Only politically well-connected companies can prosper, and those mostly produce low-quality goods that people only buy because importing goods from abroad is prohibitively expensive and bureaucratic. The society is thoroughly corrupt, having internalized the lesson that when someone gets cheated, it&#x27;s their own fault for being so stupid, and a laudable achievement for the cheater. So Argentines who have the choice invest their money abroad, leaving the country without the capital investment required for industrial productivity.<p>The current government says lots of great things about capitalism and economic liberty, but you cannot institute capitalism by fiat. (Turning a healthy tank of fish into fish soup is easier than turning fish soup back into a healthy tank of fish.) Capitalism is highly productive because capitalists invest their capital in creating productive capacity in the expectation of profit. In Argentina, capitalists very reasonably have the expectation that, after the next election, their profits will be confiscated by the new administration. So they don&#x27;t invest, except in forms that pay for themselves before the next election — mining minerals and planting crops, for example.<p>Massive state spending to expand productive capacity might be able to break this cycle, following the examples of the US, the USSR, the People&#x27;s Republic of China, and Perón himself (before he abandoned the policy). But it&#x27;s absolutely taboo for both the current &quot;libertarian&quot; administration and their Peronist political opponents.
    • wslh2 hours ago
      &gt; because we&#x27;ve allowed a system (capitalism) to be created<p>Before we even discuss capitalism, Argentina&#x27;s history shows that a large share of its GDP has gone directly to corruption at every level of the pyramid. See [1].<p>[1] &quot;Corruption accounting and growth: towards a new methodology&quot; &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ideas.repec.org&#x2F;a&#x2F;eme&#x2F;jfcpps&#x2F;jfc-04-2019-0039.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ideas.repec.org&#x2F;a&#x2F;eme&#x2F;jfcpps&#x2F;jfc-04-2019-0039.html</a>&gt;
  • reaperducer5 hours ago
    KPFT&#x2F;Houston has been doing something very similar for almost 50 years.<p>KPFT&#x27;s version is a little more specialized. It&#x27;s called The Prison Show and transmits messages from families to their loved ones behind bars.<p>When I&#x27;m in Houston, I try to listen because it gives you a taste of a segment of life and people you may otherwise never come in contact with. If you&#x27;re interested in human nature and the power of communication, it&#x27;s very engaging.<p>The last time I heard it, it was on in the evening, I think on a weekend.
  • jmbwell3 hours ago
    See also, Houston’s Prison Show on KPFT, for messages from friends and families to the incarcerated:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprisonshow.net&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprisonshow.net&#x2F;</a><p>(ETA: Ah, missed reaperducer beat me to it)
  • successdraftee6 hours ago
    Interesting. I wonder how missed calls work.
    • eesmith6 hours ago
      The article mentions that some messages, like a death notice, are sent multiple times, and gives an example of how a listener can pass on a message to people to others.
    • doublerabbit6 hours ago
      A goat comes charging and rams it&#x27;s horn in to the back of your leg.
  • pratik_soni3 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • entterprice3 hours ago
    [flagged]