Somewhat related, I’ve been digesting this long but fascinating talk about the even earlier history of OOP, going all the way back to the 1950s. It’s from the perspective of someone who questions some early decisions about what OOP would become. Implementation inheritance, of course, which iirc is something Kay calls out as more accidental than principled language design decision in this paper. But also things like the physical arrangement of data in memory, and how all of this affects what kinds of problems will be easier or harder to solve.<p><a href="https://youtu.be/wo84LFzx5nI" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/wo84LFzx5nI</a>
A lot of people don't know that Smalltalk heavily influenced NeXTSTEP and Objective-C. You'll see a lot of it in Interface Builder->Project Builder->XCode with the GUI serialization (and of course Obj-C message passing and general dynamic nature).<p>This is a good history:<p><a href="https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-apps-steve-jobs-nextstep-and-early-object-oriented-programming/" rel="nofollow">https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-ap...</a>
An another lot of people doesn't know that Smalltalk-76 onwards implemented the Simula 67 object model (as the first language in the given completeness), which represented a fundamental departure in that respect from Smalltalk-72. See the Ingalls 1978 and 2020 papers for more information (<a href="https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/512760.512762" rel="nofollow">https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/512760.512762</a> and <a href="https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335" rel="nofollow">https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335</a>, both more interesting and relevant than the one in the title, written by the person who invented most of the technology we today know as Smalltalk-80).
Which then influenced Mesa, Cedar, Interlisp-D inside Xerox.<p>Mesa and Cedar influenced Niklaus Wirth to come up with Modula-2/Lillith and Oberon.<p>Which had an influence on Rob Pike, on how he developed ACME for Plan 9.<p>Meanwhile StrongTalk, and Objective-C ended up influencing how Java came to be, and its approach to JIT compilation.<p>On another track Smalltalk ends up influencing Self design, which ends up having an effect on how V8 JIT was designed.<p>Then there is Ruby as well.<p>Pity that with all of this, many still never tried what actually means to use Smalltalk.<p>Note that Interface Builder started as a Lisp prototype, before being acquired by NeXT.<p><a href="https://paulhammant.com/2013/03/28/interface-builders-alternative-lisp-timeline/" rel="nofollow">https://paulhammant.com/2013/03/28/interface-builders-altern...</a>
> Which then influenced Mesa, Cedar<p>In what respect? What sources for this claim do you have?
The LeLisp version of Interface Builder that JMH wrote at INRIA predates the timeline in your link.
What is really surprising to me is that Smalltalk was originally targeted as an educational language for children:<p><a href="https://worrydream.com/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk/#smalltalkAndChildren" rel="nofollow">https://worrydream.com/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk/#smalltalkAnd...</a><p>In this way, it was the older brother of Logo, but with a core object scaffold that was far more influential.
I had the pleasure of learning OOP with Smalltalk at university back in 2002. They used it as the second language (Lisp was the first) to teach the principles. I really loved it. What I admired most was that you “lived” in your program. Later on, Java (1.4) was taught, but coming from Smalltalk, everything felt cumbersome, especially working with collections.
Of all the languages I’ve used in my professional career so far, only Ruby has sparked the same joy.
Whenever this story (and all the related stories about PARC) re-surface, I am (writing now in late 2026) mostly sad about the incredible language that should have 'won' .. well .. everything!<p>The term 'footgun' unfortunately matches all too well: something so great, so powerful yet most of the time, even in the hands of well-intended folks, proceeds to shoot oneself in the foot. I was for more than a decade a professional Smalltalk developer (Telecommunications, Financial/Derivatives) but we were replaced by technically inferior systems, mostly Java, JavaScript and even VisualBasic. The HR person at the Financial company explained (after my exit interview!) that for the cost of a single Smalltalk developer, they could hire 4 or 5 lesser experienced programmers (less cognizant of how systems actually worked!). The HR folks preferred these hires: more selection, cheaper . etc. Sigh!<p>Am I a horrible person to enjoy so much (schadenfreude!) the upcoming AI/LLM footgun massacre?
Blame IBM and other Smalltalk vendors.<p>They were the ones that almost on day one pivoted their Smalltalk offerings into Java.<p>Eclipse still has the Visual Age Smalltalk object browser.<p>If you look into OS/2 documentation, and SOM (OS/2 version of COM), you will find out Smalltalk on OS/2 had a role similar to .NET on Windows.<p>I think AI is the revenge of Lisp, dealing with Python without JIT, and the whole 4 GLs, CASE tooling that tried to automate programming in the 1990's, this time around it goes.
> I think AI is the revenge of Lisp, dealing with Python without JIT, and the whole 4 GLs, CASE tooling that tried to automate programming in the 1990's, this time around it goes.<p>Perhaps it’s because I haven’t had a coffee yet, but I’m not following/parsing this last paragraph - can you expand?
Sure.<p>Lisp was the AI language, alongside Prolog (see Japan's 5th generation computing project).<p>Instead of having nice Interlisp-D and Symbolics machines with their graphical tooling, hot code reloading and machine code generation, we got Jupiter notebooks and C/C++/Fortran libraries on a pure interpreted language [0].<p>Additionally in the 1990's there were several efforts to move into the next level of programming, with more human like languages, CASE tooling, RUP method (with UML), most of them failed, SQL is one of the survivors, think its declarative nature.<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language_generations#Fourth_generation_(4GL)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language_generatio...</a><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engineering" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engine...</a><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_unified_process" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_unified_process</a><p>So while not all of those ideas caught on as expected, now we get to program in natural language, use Markdown waterfall plans for agents, integrate them with Web services, seat reading email and Internet surfing until their activities are ready for review.<p>In low code/no code cloud platforms like Workato, Boomi and co, classical programming is already past tense.<p>[0] - Granted now JIT is being part of CPython roadmap, and there are some nice IDEs for Python actually.
Interesting!<p>Were you using IBM Visual Age Smalltalk?
You're not a horrible person to enjoy that. However, the schadenfreude is only in your head. 2026 is the most amazing year of building software in human history, so far.
Well, programming feels that it will get closer Smalltalk. For webdev you get pretty mature HMR, you look at the interface and sometimes just point at things and tell a model to modify it. So pretty close to live medium +short feedback loops.<p>If the big labs wouldn't have the incentive of hiding the code and making you rely solely on the models, you'd probably also see more inspection tools and contextual changes when the model does them.
It depends, IMHO. If op is talking about "programming", then I think they are right. If they are talking about "development", then I think you are right.
I for one already have the popcorn at the ready. Can't wait for it.
I've OCR'ed and corrected Yoot Saito's 1992 interview with Alan Kay, and also restored the missing appendix sections with illustrations that are not included in Bret's version of Alan Kay's Early History of Smalltalk, and compiled and linked together indexes of people, institutions, technologies and a timeline:<p>Yoot Saito Alan Kay Interview: Introduction:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Introduction.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>In 1993, game designer Yutaka "Yoot" Saito interviewed Alan Kay for MACWORLD Japan, for the special issue marking the Macintosh's tenth anniversary (January 1994). The conversation was recorded on cassette and later transcribed. It had only been published in Japan.<p>Kay covers his own path through computing history: the Flex Machine, Xerox PARC, the graphical user interface, the Dynabook concept, and the creation of Smalltalk and object-oriented programming. He and Saito also discuss networking, education, simulation, and where personal computing might go next. Saito connects these ideas to game design.<p>During the interview both men appear to be working from Kay's HOPL paper, The Early History of Smalltalk, and its appendices as a shared reference. When Kay says "in that," "in there," or "in the appendix," the links in the transcript point to the relevant section where it can be identified.<p>The interview also documents Saito's role as a bridge between Japanese game and media culture and the US computing research that produced the personal computer.<p>Yoot Saito Alan Kay Interview:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>A Journey Through Computing History with Yoot Saito and Alan Kay<p><pre><code> Yoot towers wisely,
Alan constructs the future—
foundations of change.
</code></pre>
And here are missing secions from Bret's version of Alan Kay's Early History of Smalltalk:<p>Early History of Smalltalk, Complete:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk-Complete.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Alan Kay's Early History of Smalltalk: Complete Local Edition<p>This is the local reading guide for Alan Kay's HOPL paper, The Early History Of Smalltalk, together with the restored appendix material, figures, presentation transcript, discussant remarks, Q&A, and related documentation preserved in this repository.<p>Credit and thanks to Bret Victor for publishing the cleaned-up HTML edition of the paper body and accompanying image set at worrydream/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk. The local paper body and EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk-* PNG files are derived from Bret's public edition. The appendix Markdown files here are local readable renderings from the OCR/plain-text appendix sources and local scans.<p>The Early History Of Smalltalk:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Detailed paper body index:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk-Index.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix I: KiddiKomp Memo 45:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-I.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix II: Smalltalk-72 Interpreter Design 47:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-II.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix III: Acknowledgments 50:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-III.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix IV: Event Driven Loop Example 53:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-IV.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix V: Smalltalk-76 Internal Structures 54:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-V.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Appendix VI: Smalltalk Documentation, HOPL Talk, and Discussion:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-VI.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>References:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-VI.md#references" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Transcript of presentation:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Appendix-VI.md#transcript-of-presentation" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>And I've made some additional cross references including the Yoot Saito Interview:<p>People:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/People.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Institutions:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Technologies.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Technologies:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Technologies.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a><p>Timeline:<p><a href="https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Yoot_Saito_Alan_Kay_Interview/Timeline.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/YootTowerManagement/YootTower/blob/main/Y...</a>
Just yesterday I was talking with a friend who works at Instantiations [1]. They were founded in 1988, and still ship a new release every year of Smalltalk. What I find fascinating is that customers are actively building on it and seem happy.<p>[1] <a href="https://www.instantiations.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.instantiations.com/</a>
I really wish that there was a license/version/build marketed to hobbyists:<p>>Call or Email for Pricing<p>and the upgrade pricing is four figures (per set per year I'm guessing?).<p>Ages ago, I actually bought a Smalltalk for Windows compiler, but never got around to doing anything with it (which I regret) --- I suppose I should try Dolphin SmallTalk....
There is Pharo (and Squeak) as a free SmallTalk.
Dad is true Smalltalk believer, used to use visual age, instantiations etc but is a happy user of pharo nowadays which is free, opensource and under active development so could give that one a try.