> <i>“In [Fiscal Year] 2025, out of the over 419 million travelers CBP processed at ports of entry, CBP only searched the electronic devices of 55,318 international travelers,” the agency wrote, or 0.0013%.</i><p>The harassment is targeted at critics & opponents of the current regime. The message is very clear: <i>Be afraid of us. Be very afraid</i><p>There are 33 days remaining until election day. Vote out all the incumbents.
Technically the law applies to '100 miles of a port of entry' [1] so they can use it to come into your home too, obviously selective homes. Most population of US lives within '100 miles of a port of entry' [2]<p>[1] <a href="https://www.help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1253?language=en_US" rel="nofollow">https://www.help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1253?language=en_...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://www.southernborder.org/100_mile_border_enforcement_zone" rel="nofollow">https://www.southernborder.org/100_mile_border_enforcement_z...</a>
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they said vote out ALL incumbents
If you think the current administration hasn't pushed this so far beyond, and so much faster, what any previous administration has done - since maybe the red scare - I don't have a bridge to sell you. Because honestly, you shouldn't be anywhere near anything involving public welfare.
> The number of warrantless device searches at the border and the significant invasion of privacy they represent is only increasing. In Fiscal Year 2022, CBP conducted an all-time high of 45,499 device searches.<p><a href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/05/federal-judge-makes-history-holding-border-searches-cell-phones-require-warrant" rel="nofollow">https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/05/federal-judge-makes-hi...</a><p>But sure it's the current administration what pushed this <i>so far beyond</i>. Beyond 40k phones into 50k phones!
I really doubt the previous administration was trying to deprive people of their liberty based on their political beliefs. The current administration very clearly is. I can't speak to any changes in the phone search policy, but your right to freedom of expression is gone at the federal level.<p><a href="https://www.propublica.org/article/caught-in-crackdown-ice-cbp-doj-trump-arrests-convictions" rel="nofollow">https://www.propublica.org/article/caught-in-crackdown-ice-c...</a>
Both things are simultaneously possible:
* This admin is actively hostile in a specific way (eg towards immigrants)
* <i>All</i> govts have been hostile for a (very) hot minute (see: patriot act, snowden stuff that happened across different presidents).<p>And a bonus:
* This is not a new thing, a is related to why people occasionally talk about "the swamp"/the "deep state"/"3 letter agencies". NSA has self interest to stay alive regardless of admin.<p>And this aspect (of "some parts of the govt aren't really affected by the elected reps) isn't a new thing at all either - see: Yes (Prime) Minister.
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37267299">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37267299</a><p>(2023)<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5192749">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5192749</a><p>(2013)<p>There have been discussions on HN about this topic across administrations. That is not to say that there aren’t differences in degree, but the government has long maintained that it has special rights to conduct searches at the border that would not be permitted elsewhere.
><i>I really doubt the previous administration was trying to deprive people of their liberty based on their political beliefs</i><p>Well, not for pro-themselves ones at least.
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Given that travel hadn't recovered from covid in 2022, that 45k to 55k increase mean even less.<p>Has the % of people searched actually decreased?<p>I don't trust the current U.S. gov (or any U.S. gov, really), but the figure isn't actually increasing in a significant way. The US. remain as unwelcoming to visitors as they have been since 2001. Nothing to see in this report.
There is no recovering from this stat drop to the person you’re responding to. Well done. 45k pre trump is surprisingly high
<i>Every</i> administration pushes it beyond what the previous administration did.
The "everyone does it" defense is how the worst of the worst get away with it.
And the "this one is different" defense is how the slightly less bad get away with it and continue to push the envelopse towards worse.
You are correct, but everyone does it can ALSO be used to prevent anyone from getting away with it.
But it makes it clear that voting won't fix this.
This is just adding noise. Even if true, it's still very, very bad. Why even bother saying this?
Many of us have been warning that the systems built by presidents before Trump, would be abused by a president like Trump, and here we are. I think the critics of the system are the ones with public welfare in mind and ask you to take a deep breath.
Well they did but I would be willing to bet that their successors will not remove laws allowing this. They may relieve it little bit but why would they remove such potentially valuable tool?<p>Government always want to have as much control as it can possibly acquire.
Well, at least did no Government before Trump demolish the US reputation in such a short time of 1.5y, so Im happy to hear about your bridge :-)
"The previous administration is only doing what the last administration did!" seems to be the rallying cry of the Trump administrations.<p>If Obama and Biden really did suck that much, and if Trump's the savior that they claim, <i>he should be doing less of it, not more</i>.<p>Of course, that's blatantly ignoring the whole premise of Trump - a wannabe dictator implementing totalitarianism for the far-right in exchange for an opportunity to use the presidency for his personal gain in direct violation of the emoluments clause of the Constitution - but that would be the improvement, not just the targeting of people you don't like with the same tactics.
I will be curious to see statistics from past years. I'm wondering if this is a new thing. I'm pretty sure US customs and border patrol have always had this power. I think basically every country exercises this power
"It has always been this way, this is normal" is the typical first response to tyranny. It puts you on their side, which is fine if that's where you want to be. Just be aware of it. If you think it's wrong, you definitely don't want to be taking the side of "it's normal," because whether or not it's normal is irrelevant when your government is doing immoral and tyrannical behavior in your name.
Weird response to a pretty benign question.<p>Asking whether or not something is new or how frequently it's been done in the past isn't saying it's acceptable nor does it put them on the side of tyranny. In fact, a sign of tyranny would be a significant uptick in the number of these searches, and how else would you be able to see that worrying signal without answering the question they asked?
> how else would you be able to see that worrying signal without answering the question they asked?<p>Was anyone ever refused entry because they had an image poking fun at Kamala Harris? There, your question has been answered.
> Weird response to a pretty benign question.<p>How was this question:<p>> I think basically every country exercises this power
You quoted something that wasn't part of the question, which was "I'm wondering if this is a new thing".<p>Their impression was that it wasn't and that other countries do similar things. Stating your understanding of a situation helps guide discussion and helps people answer your inquiries. Doing that should be encouraged, not somehow treated as an endorsement of tyranny.
The best moment to fix this was yesterday. The second best time to fix it is now.
Sure but that means November will have no impact on what CPB does. It’s always happened and will continue to happen just like stock trading with insider information by congress members will continue to happen regardless of November results. The vote came up and it was voted down and I don’t see that changing. I don’t see the spying on citizens changing. The NSA spied on Congress and they did nothing about it.<p>It’s disingenuous to imply that November will have an effect on either of those topics.
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It has always been this way; but for the hundreds of years before computers that fit in the palm of your hand that have your entire life on them, it was to ensure you weren’t bringing dangerous goods or produce into the country. It was a physical search of physical items.<p>The issue now is that my entire life is literally on my phone.<p>The issue now is that there is a 100-mile ‘border search exception’ in place. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception</a><p>Now, within 100 miles of the border, should CBP choose to, they can search me without a warrant and search everything in my phone, and even retain it if they’d like. If I want to challenge that, I need tens of thousands of dollars and time.<p>This is the very definition of an unreasonable search; but to change that we have to change the politicians and change the judiciary. It’s up to us, but until we get it changed, we may as well consider the 4th amendment a dead letter, and that means trouble for all of us.
Wikipedia's map is wrong. The "border" includes international airports. There is very little of the population that is not within 100 miles of this "border."<p>The map also does not show Hawai'i, which would be one green blob, there is no part of Hawai'i not 100 miles from the border. All of the New England states are similarly small enough to be completely covered, even by the erroneous picture of the physical border.<p>You basically get a few, mostly uninhabited spots out in the West that aren't covered.
I've been hearing about the US searching phones for many years, but not a single time for any other (non-dictatorship) country. The advice for travelling to the US in my circles is "wipe your device, install some believable bullshit, restore from backup when you're through". Not for any other "normal" country.
37signals has been having border crossing guidance at least since 2020.
<a href="https://github.com/kspr9/basecamp-37signals-handbook/blob/master/international-travel-guide.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/kspr9/basecamp-37signals-handbook/blob/ma...</a><p>The USA is definitely not thevonly one. Great Britain has also an extensive history of tyranical privacy-violating border crossing.<p>As is Israel and Russia.<p>The point is, the deeper you look, the better you understand how wide-spread the practice is.
Only new-ish because cell phones are now not only ubiquitous but also contains troves of typically private information. Historically, individuals didn't have their entire lives, financial details, personal details, etc on their bodies when traveling. The border exception to the 4th was used primarily for enforcing customs/trade regulations. That carve out is now used to harass citizens.
You're getting downvoted because you didn't anticipate and properly defend yourself against angry people who don't understand the is/aught fallacy. They mistake "is this true?" for "this should be true". Actually, it's not even the is/aught fallacy, it's something weirder. I have yet to figure it out. Still working on that one.
The core issue is that on one hand, police needs power to protect the citizens, but at the same time the power might corrupt them.
This is why state powers need judicial oversight.<p>There are some instances where powers need to be exercised in a hurry, but there should always be proper reporting and a paper trail, with stiff reprimanded for misuse or abuse of the system. Accidents can happen, but they should be infrequent and should follow protocol.<p>It would be great if citizens had more direct involvement in these cases too. I don't see why egregious abuses shouldn't be tried by jury.<p>Police and intelligence agency employees should be held to a higher standard than civilians (like military personnel are subject to UCMJ), and breeches of protocols should lead to harsher punishments imposed upon them. It would be fine to pay them more if it required more training and accountability.
In most of Europe, police carry guns. But they are afraid to fire those guns, because there will be a disciplinary process and they are likely to lose their job or go to jail if they can't show there was no other alternative. But if there is a situation where it is necessary to fire the gun, it will be.
Also in Europe more cops have K-9s and aren’t afraid to sick them on suspects.
In the US, anyone can own a gun. Police have to perform a different risk calculus than in Europe.<p>Police officers are 30x more likely to be murdered in the US South than in, say, Germany.
> police needs power to protect the citizens<p>Those terms need to be clearly defined. SCOTUS has declared that the police actually have no duty to protect and to serve the people.<p>And with an overwhelming amount of evidence, the police operate with effectively no accountability and repeated demonstrate that they abuse their powers freely.<p>So yes, laws without teeth are pointless but the state's monopoly on violence should only be granted when it can be demonstrated to not be abused.
Unfortunately you have made it about politics, so half the people won't listen to you, and half will agree without understanding the problem of the situation.
Yeah, people are unfortunately not informed on just how much power border agents wield. Not only in the US, but in many (most I'd believe) other countries, too. I've worked on cases (intel side) where the law-enforcement side would just wait for the surveillance objects to cross the border, as that's where they could do most data collection with the least hassle.<p>If for whatever reason you think you're being investigated or surveilled (who knows for what these days, could be enough to just associate with the various protest groups / orgs), you can just assume that the border will be where they'll try to clone / download your data (phones, laptops, whatever)
I'm lucky to live in a country (Poland) where border agents can either let you in, arrest you if there is an arrest warrant, or detain but only with a lawful basis for detention (as in, you are posing a threat to others) and detention may be used only when other measures have proved pointless or ineffective.<p>This makes returning to the country nice and pleasant. The border agents never ask you creepy questions like: Where are you going? Where will you be staying? What do you intend to do? (it's what US border agents ask their citizens). They just say hi and let you in.
Poland border agents do ask why you're visiting. Don't know where you're getting that info.
The obvious difference between your experiences and the person you're replying to is that he's residing there and you're visiting. You're right that your rights are far more limited when you're a visitor to a country crossing a border, but he and this thread are talking about what rights residents to a country have regarding the border.
My point was that Polish citizens do not get asked. This is different for Americans. US citizens entering their own country have to answer these bizarre and sometimes creepy questions.
I’m British, I entered Britain yesterday morning and didn’t say anything to anyone from leaving the plane to asking for a coffee at Ealing Broadway - it’s all automated. The job of the border is to check you are the person your passport claims to be, which seems reasonable.<p>I did have to put my hotel on the landing form when I entered singapore last week but nothing more - again didn’t talk to anyone until checking in at the hotel. In China they did talk to me, asked me if I was there for business or tourism the week before, nothing more.<p>I know the US border is perhaps the least friendly border I’ve ever crossed — and that includes going in and out of Gaza, but I assumed that US citizens didn’t get that treatment.
Yeah, in that case I agree. I didn't realize you only meant Polish citizens.
At least not if from the EU.
Strongly depends where you're from. I know of people who were turned around.
But if you are from outside the EU, it’s tad different.
I dream of a future where the disk image in my laptop both functions as an operating system, but can also be decrypted into secret files. We'll keep the extra entropy in a pile of AI slop next to the other piles of AI slop. That way, under scrutiny, it just looks like an OS full of AI slop.
UK is crazy for this. Border police can detain anyone they like for literally no reason and if they do you have no right to lawyer or no right to silence. Your devices can also be taken and you must hand over any passwords.<p>I know the UK is an authoritarian state and not really comparable to the US, but as a Brit it's kinda weird hearing Americans complain about flock cameras and arbitrary border searches – these are common place things in the UK and no one cares (well, apart from me and maybe one or two others).
That is not true. The specific powers of arrest and detention by UK border force were set out in this freedom of information response here <a href="https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uk_border_force_powers_of_arrest/response/1494571/attach/3/55583%20H%20Ali%20response.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1" rel="nofollow">https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uk_border_force_power...</a><p>Summary is they can’t detain people for no reason, they can detain people for specific offences relating to immigration and citizenship, customs and excise and also the normal stuff any regular police officer can arrest people for.<p>I’m no apologist for how much state authority they have, but it’s not as bad as you’re making out.
It is true.<p>The UK border agents (technically counter-terrorism) can stop you at the border, force you into a room, ask for your passwords to all your devices and you don't have the right to refuse.<p>You also don't have the right to a lawyer to be in a room with you and you are compelled to answer all their questions and they do not need to tell you why they stopped you.<p>Then, if you are lucky they return your devices 7 days later after they have been through everything.<p>This guy went through it last year and talks about what happens when they stop you: <a href="https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=-5S1uLE7K9KG_gNj" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=-5S1uLE7K9KG_gNj</a>
Welcome to the "democratic" regimes of US, UK, Russia and Turkey. Arbitrary border searches, interrogations and imprisonment, if you are on the wrong end of the political spectrum.
All the shady stuff the UK does, it does at the behest of the US.
For me, it isn't the lack of warrant (I am a UK Citizen but I expect we have similar problems here), it is the lack of transparency and accountability.<p>If was arrested on suspicion of something, I can get legal assistance and I can know what I am suspected of and why before any of my property (or in this case, potentially very private and sensitive information) could be taken. If the arrest is manifestly wrongful or not based on any evidence, then I expect it would be easy enough to resist investigation.<p>On the other hand, having someone at the border who can justify an arbitrary search on the basis that "they might suspect of something", without having to clearly justify that basis and that if they then take property (or information), potentially copy it completely opaquely and then have zero accountability if that is misused is extremely frustrating but I guess you need to lobby your lawmakers to make the system fairer and to ensure legal protections of privileged information is completely upheld - period.
Possible solution: An app that dumps / restores the phone to a remote site, all e2ee.<p>Wipe your phone and factory reset before you cross the border, then restore afterward.
Warrant is a mechanism to address transparency and accountability (somewhat)
<i>The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.</i><p>It's self explanatory.
Constitution-free zone. It's self explanatory.
It only self-explains what it says, not what the police actually do.
They just make it a probable cause. Problem solved for them.
I’m always confused when people say this. It’s vague as heck! That one little word in there, “unreasonable,” makes it completely up for interpretation.
I have some astoundingly bad news for you about the entire system of trial by jury which is that virtually the entire thing depends on twelve average people defining the word "reasonable" in the context of your offense.
Do you think this is a reasonable use of power?
Plenty will say yes. We know this.<p>One of the Constitution's big failings is this sort of thing; deeply vague wording. What counts as interstate commerce? What counts as reasonable? What's considered press activity? What's considered illegal speech?<p>If you were writing a new one today, you'd define some stuff more.
Haha, as if the constitution matters anymore.
It is not self-explanatory how to define the weasel word "unreasonable"
I don't like this. I think about a year ago when there was a big push for chat control in the EU, almost like an instinct, I started working on ways to be more soverign with my data.<p>I'm just a regular guy who really has nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I need to be complacent with just allowing a future I don't like be propped up in front of my eyes.<p>What I've come to realize is there is really no safer place for your data and communications than just your own home. At the very least, I would like a judge to review the evidence of my alledged wrong doing before the government can raid my castle and get what they need.<p>Why do I, as a regular citizen feel the need to invoke and create my own protections on personal data and communications?<p>There's something deep inside me that feels the need to be prepared for this odd future where the government feels they have the right to access everything. It's deeply troubling on many fronts.
I disagree with this framing. Privacy is never been about having something to hide. There's a big difference between having something to hide and it just not being someone else's business. It also implies a kind of light criminality imo.<p>I don't hide my bank details it's just none of your business.<p>This is me exercising personal control, preventing misuse and exploitation, and protecting the little dignity I have left this centry.
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> I'm just a regular guy who really has nothing to hide<p>Yeah, you do.<p>Post your nudes.<p>Post your full financial details.<p>Post your whole medical history.<p>Post every crime you might have committed, even as a juvenile.<p>Post all your credit cards and bank account details.<p>Hmmmm, so you ARE hiding those, eh? Quit framing this as "nothing to hide", because we ALL have things we hide... Not because they're illegal or anything, but because it protects us.
Exactly and if they can't keep FBI data locked down how are they going to keep what they harvest from the plebes. You really want your insurer, landlord, employer, bank knowing all this?
Sorry, but its not 'I have nothing to hide so who cares'...it's 'I have nothing to hide, and you also have absolutely no right to access my data and I will make that as hard as I possibly can.'<p>This is different than arguing 'I have nothing to hide and also because of that you get free reign to everything'?<p>But really, I don't take nudes cause why?, my financials are remarkably average, I have no medical history that I care about people knowing (broke my hand once), I've haven't broken any law's, I don't use credit cards...?<p>That doesn't mean you are allowed to access my devices on whims, track my daily movements relentlessly.
> I'm just a regular guy who really has nothing to hide<p>I think you are wrong. We all have things to hide.<p>A joke between friends taken out of context. Your angry messages to a spouse or parent after a fight happened between you and them could be used out of context also. And what about your YouTube history and playlist or your web history...<p>> just your own home<p>Your home can be searched and all your devices at home can be seized as well. Granted it's probably a higher threshold than having everything on your phone but it's no a panacea either.
>Your home can be searched and all your devices at home can be seized as well.<p>You need a warrant to search my home. That's my whole point. Warrantless access is the issue.<p>Get a warrant, and I will happily show you anything you want. Nothing will be found because at the end of the tunnel, I actually have nothing to hide, I'm just a regular guy is my point.
> You need a warrant to search my home.<p>I agree that is why I said that it was higher threshold to get access to your data but warrants can be obtained for many different reasons and not always good ones either.<p>All I am saying is that if they want your data, they'll get it. It's just easier at the border.
>All I am saying is that if they want your data, they'll get it. It's just easier at the border.<p>That's fine, and I will do everything I can to make it as difficult as possible, not because I have something to hide at the end of the day, but because screw that what a terrible future to pass on to the next generation.
> “In [Fiscal Year] 2025, out of the over 419 million travelers CBP processed at ports of entry, CBP only searched the electronic devices of 55,318 international travelers,” the agency wrote, or 0.0013%.<p>And...<p>> In Fiscal Year 2020, CBP processed more than 238 million travelers at U.S. ports of entry. During that same period of time, CBP conducted 32,038 border searches of electronic devices, representing less than .014 percent of arriving international travelers.[1]<p>In other words, now it's as likely[0] to get your phone searched as in 2020. It's interesting how the media shapes people's perspective, isn't it?<p>[0]: 0.001% less likely, so just marginal error.<p>[1]: <a href="https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics-fy22" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...</a> not sure it reports 2020's data here though.
<i>”[the CBP agent] said if I didn’t give them my phone, my interrogation was going to take much longer and they could retain my phone indefinitely”</i><p>I would take a punt at filing a complaint about that. Threatening someone with selective enforcement must fall short of professional standards at CBP, as stated on their .gov page:<p><a href="https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/2024-09/exhibit_08_-_cbp_directive_51735-013b_standards_of_conduct.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/2024-09/exhibit_08_-...</a>
I wonder if there's a way for "targets" of CBP to easily maintain phones that can be toggled between their "real work" profile and some boring anodyne "CBP-safe" profile?<p>Locking/disabling the phone, I think, only creates suspicion as we've seen in a previous case not long ago. But if phones can have a cloud back-ups, shouldn't it be possible to have TWO different "back-ups" that can be chosen at will?
With the current political climate, that might be tantamount to destruction of evidence or contempt, and be the worst of all options. The problem isn’t any particular technical thing, it’s that the US government has become authoritarian and fascist, there is no legal “gotcha” that will ultimately work here.
If nothing matters, people who have reason to use technical countermeasures aren't really taking extra risk by doing it.
(Allegedly) hiding evidence that a person accused of vandalism has read the wrong books will get you 30 years in federal prison these days.<p><a href="https://freedom.press/issues/texas-man-sentenced-to-30-years-for-transporting-pamphlets/" rel="nofollow">https://freedom.press/issues/texas-man-sentenced-to-30-years...</a>
It's only illegal if you get caught.
Too bad phones aren't easy to do a full back up of, wipe, then restore after you are past the border agents. Or can keep all user data on a microSD card that you remove and secure before the search.
The challenge is that if you make it easy to restore, then security matters so much or a random person out there is going to restore your entire phone on another device. Privacy needs strong security, and strong security often involves great inconvenience which most people don't want to deal with.
Explain how? I've yet to find something reliable like this. At best you can have a decent number of apps automatically reinstalled to the original state, but not all, and most settings don't transfer, etc. And that requires root access, which most people don't have afaik.
You can declaratively manage your phone with something like github.com/devindudeman/nix-android so you'd point at a decoy config file and rebuild before crossing the border and then point at the up-to-no-good config file once across.<p>Of course you do have to be able to reference those files somehow, so they have to be online, but if there are no references to them on the device then the border folks would have to somehow know about them and be able to access them in order to link you and your device to the declared configs. There are a lot of ways to hide such a thing.<p>Presumably the most sensitive thing here is your social graph and messages. I haven't verified if nix-android handles them in a way that would make sense here, but it's at least plausible that it might.
I used to do this kind of thing with TiBackup when Android phones were easy to play with and experimentation was more common.<p>I'd back up the phone to an SD card and/or send the backup offsite over the network.<p>After that, I could nuke whatever I wanted -- or factory reset it, switch to a different OS (we often called them "ROMs" back then), play with that for a bit, switch back and forth, or whatever.<p>When the time was right, I'd use TiBackup to restore the backup. <i>It didn't even have to be the same phone.</i> Apps and data were restored to where they had been. Home screens looked the same. Settings and preferences went back to how they were. The same web stuff remained in browser cache, alongside the same cookies.<p>There were occasional outliers that didn't come back perfectly, of course, but broadly speaking: It worked very well. Those outliers were few and easy to deal with.<p>This required root access. But for a time (years), that was easy.<p>(I will never accept any defense of any proclamations that we must be restricted from doing <i>whatever the fuck we want</i> with the hardware that we own. If I can do things with a desktop PC, then I should also be able to do those same things with a pocket computer.)
Elsewhere in this very thread I talk about how we need a modern solution for full true image backup for phones; I'm also an example of somebody who could use it, as I have phones where if I was to back up and wipe them I would lose the ability to use some extremely expensive old thermal cameras that work by attaching to them, - if I wiped and reinstalled, even having the apps, they require reaching out to servers for initial authentication that no longer exists. A full image backup would solve this.<p>Rooting is now far more difficult unfortunately, and isn't even available mostly; but I don't see a real method to do a full proper image backup of phones today.
> If I can do things with a desktop PC, then I should also be able to do those same things with a pocket computer.<p>I understand the sentiment behind this argument, but please stop making the argument for freedom to do computing on own devices by making a comparison between desktop PC and pocket computers (mobile devices).<p>I believe that the bad-faith actors are just gonna force same state of things on desktop PCs as well moving forward, instead of enabling freedom of compute on mobile devices.
Yes, I also used Ti[tanium?] Backup, and now use NeoBackup. Those still don't quite hit the spot for me of a full and reliable backup. It's close in many ways, but I've found system settings to be largely nontransferable, and many times apps would just seem to break or crash after restoring. So I have no idea how people do anything close to it without root, although I suppose it's possible at this point if you use a Google account and apps they probably have something.
<i>You can buy an android which can easily be rooted if you want
</i>They might start restricting what you can do in your PC. Let's keep both free to modify in any way we want without comparison.
Or just take a different phone with you if you're that worried about it.
Why not? I thought this was easy enough at least on apple.
> that you remove and *secure* before the search.<p>In a dark body cavity?
For Apple at least, don't most users have ADP disabled, so the Gov has access to the data anyway?<p>And quite a bit of backed-up data on Android is not E2EE encrypted
Does "search your phone" include any externally-hosted content that can be accessed by said phone?
Yes of course. Basically they have ruled the entire warrant requirement for searches and prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is suspended within 100 miles of any border or international airport (which is most of the US).
The law makes it clear that the rules are only suspended in the customs zone of the airport and within 100 miles of the airport. They seem to follow that. The checkpoints you see in Washington state or down near the border with Mexico do not show up around denver or dfw. The reality is bad enough we don't need to exaggerate it. And they can't just grab every phone as they walk around LA either, they have to signal their dog to alert on you to give them probable cause...
This gets repeated in every discussion here and it’s absolutely not true. (It’s only land and sea borders which is bad enough as is.) Please stop repeating it or it will become accepted “folk wisdom” and then they’ll actually push it as a policy.
A comparison would be physical keys found during a police search - under what circumstances can the police legally use those keys to search other, locked locations?
How true is that? Can police search a house without warranty in NYC say and have that entered as evidence (plus anything that lead from that) in court?
No, but cbp could have a k9 at any bottleneck they want and those dogs read their partners body language, so if they are a racist idiot it might alert on excessive melanin providing probable cause. Assuming they didn't just train it to alert on command. And if it alerts yeah they can demand to search your phone. I don't hear about it getting used, but that could be because they are careful not to use it on anyone who might start a case that could get it ruled unconstitutional. They openly use it where they think there is actually smuggling.
no, because that would clearly be an unreasonable search
The question is about your data stored in the cloud (not sure if it matters that it’s outside the 100mi) not on the phone.<p>Is the search limited to the phone itself and the data physically residing inside or can they open any door for which that phone is the key?
<a href="https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/2026-01/cbp_directive_3340-049b_jan_2026_508.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/2026-01/cbp_directiv...</a><p>3.2 Electronic Device: Any device that may contain information in an electronic or digital form, such as computers, tablets, disks, drives, tapes, flash drives, SIM cards, global positioning systems, unmanned aircraft systems, vehicle infotainment systems, smart watches, mobile phones and other communication devices, cameras, music and other media players.<p>3.3 Basic Search: Any border search of an electronic device that does not qualify as an advanced search as described in section 3.4, in which an officer conducts a review or analysis of information residing in electronic or digital form on the device. A basic search may include documenting information observed on the device during the search that relates to immigration, customs, or other law enforcement actions in CBP systems.<p>3.4 Advanced Search: An advanced search is any search in which an officer connects equipment, wired or wireless, to copy and/or analyze the contents of an electronic device. Use of external equipment (including a CBP standalone computer) merely to make the contents of the device available for inspection (including, for example, to bypass a password, overcome encryption, translate content, view files contained in an external drive or other electronic device lacking a screen, or charge a device) does not constitute an advanced search. Documenting notes and observations, as noted in section 3.3, does not constitute an advanced search.<p>5.1.4 An officer may perform an advanced search of an electronic device only in instances in which there is reasonable suspicion of activity in violation of the laws enforced or administered by CBP or, in the absence of individualized reasonable suspicion when there is a national security concern. All advanced searches require supervisory approval at the Grade 14 level or higher (or a manager with comparable responsibilities). In cases where the inspecting officer and approving supervisor rely on the presence of a national security concern, without reasonable suspicion, to conduct an advanced search, approval from the Director, Field Operations; Chief Patrol Agent; Director, Air Operations; Director, Marine Operations; Special Agent in Charge; or their delegate, is required prior to conducting the search. In compelling circumstances where operational considerations prevent prior approval, notification shall be made as soon as possible. Notification must include an explanation of the national security concern, the compelling circumstances that precluded prior approval, the relevant facts and information supporting the search, and the results of the search.<p>5.1.5 All searches of electronic devices will be documented in appropriate CBP systems. Officers will document any supervisory approvals required under this Directive and, in the case of an advanced search, the factors establishing reasonable suspicion of a violation of a law enforced or administered by CBP or a national security concern, as well as relevant observations, impressions, and actions taken, as appropriate.<p>5.1.6 Searches of electronic devices should be conducted in the presence of the individual whose information is being examined unless there are national security, law enforcement, officer safety, or other operational considerations that make it inappropriate to permit the individual to remain present. Permitting an individual to remain present during a search does not necessarily mean that the individual shall observe the search itself. If permitting an individual to observe the search could reveal law enforcement techniques or potentially compromise other operational considerations, the individual will not be permitted to observe the search itself"
American society should have done something about the excessive power these agents have had for a long time at the border and in the travel authority. The things they would ask, and their attitudes and behavior were almost like drug induced paranoia with confabulations.<p>Neighboring the country in Canada, the US seemed like shorthand for USSR when it came to the border and travel. This sort of policy will make the US unpopular and inhospitable for conferences or any other important gatherings that it's taken for granted.
<a href="https://www.eff.org/issues/border-searches" rel="nofollow">https://www.eff.org/issues/border-searches</a>
The constitution is officially toilet paper.
I don't travel with any of my shit anymore, I take my old phone/laptop with nothing but music, separate debit/credit cards, tickets/itenerary, and whatever other little things. No contacts, no icloud, no saved passwords, etc. Been doing it for over a decade.<p>TSA once gave me SSSS for 5 years after they tried making me answer a survey that asked me to prioritize things like "health", "safety", "privacy" as a ranked list and I refused to do that. Fuck em and anyone dumb enough to work for them. I was already used to showing up 4 hours early because they always make me take every single synth/sequencer/etc out so they can swipe it down to check for terrorism particles<p>I also get groped every single time because my dick shows up on the scanner. So goddamned worthless
> “In [Fiscal Year] 2025, out of the over 419 million travelers CBP processed at ports of entry, CBP only searched the electronic devices of 55,318 international travelers,” the agency wrote, or 0.0013%.<p>By my math, that's a little over 0.013% (ten times the cited figure).
Related: <a href="https://adc.org/case/blumenthal-v-mullin/" rel="nofollow">https://adc.org/case/blumenthal-v-mullin/</a>
> "land of the free"<p>Amazing development from idea, vision and lyrics to the current status quo.
The more free they have to tell you you are, the less free you actually are. In the DPRK they drill it into you constantly. In China, a few times a day. In the USA, only once a day.
Carry a burner old phone and ship your actual. Be prepared to smash the phone or otherwise brutalize it if they demand to search it, then let them have at it.
Smash the phone? That's terrible advice. For just about everybody, destroying the phone is probably going to get them in a lot more trouble than the contents ever would.<p>If you don't cooperate they can hold you for a while and make all kinds of threats but, if you are a citizen, ultimately they cannot deny you entry.<p>If I were truly paranoid, I'd probably travel with flip phone and an iPad with typical (non-sensitive) apps on it and a remote desktop client that I could use to connect to my computer back home. Make sure the remote desktop client isn't installed on the iPad during border crossings.
The Government can search anyone or any thing that is attempting to enter the Country for any reason.<p>If you’re just now getting upset about this then you need to check your political bias becise that’s the only thing that’s changed.
reading the article<p>> The agent took the phone away and only returned after approximately 45 minutes, during which Kennedy believes that data on the phone was copied. He was then released with no charges.<p>Does the owner, Mr. Kennedy has actual knowledge/proof if the phone was copied, or this is a guess? Might be missing from the article.
Copying from another comment I made on this:<p>#1. The download and restore backup method would work for people in general- except it doesn't capture what people would need. Exmaple: I have some thermal cameras that rely on old 32 bit apps that do not run on anything android 12 onwards- If i wipe those old phones, and restore- the apps often wanted to reach out to a server for initial activation- they would fail upon reinstall and i'd be out of the apps that are required to control my cameras and related equipment,which is worth several thousand, and has no equivalent spec wise and form factor today in 2026. And it'd be all dead weight and rendered useless.<p>( competitors today do not compete now- for example try finding a 640*480 30 hz or better form factor thermal camera that attaches to phones - they dont exist anymore)<p>\The solution is full imaging- but there isnt a real way to fully image phones and restore backups today. There used to be it seems- but not really with the latest stuff at the time of this post<p>.<p>On another note:Veracrypt- The weakness of truecrypt and veracrypt,
Their strongest counter, the hidden OS option only worked if you converted your computer to MBR, which means you can't have a hard drive too large. Making a UEFI hidden OS has not been done yet, but all computers are this now.<p>And the Hidden Volume option- isn't 'as' useful, and of course, your OS might make a copy and put it somewhere, you have to be careful. As a example: Any time I open a file, using the software tool Everything to search and confirm this- you can easily see Windows makes copies and temp files and whatnot in randomly named locations- that's the sort of software and OS behavior that will screw people over.( The year of the Linux desktop isn't here yet..)<p>Solution:We need fully image-backup capable Phones. I mean fully. Not just backing up some apps- as this refuses to backup apps you have that are no longer on app stores, or that Play Protect doesn't like, etc.
We need to be able to fully image a device, a forensic image backup, for phones that people can use, then encrypt and upload so they are good if they lose a phone.<p>Next- Plausible deniability is a way forward- but you need multiple profiles, that are cryptographically indistinguishable, along with the phone being hardened so GreyKey /Cellebrite won't be able to exploit a way in. This needs to be built this way from the ground up ideally, eventually.<p>There has been research about making devices that treat all block space the same way so you can't tell if someone has 1, or 50 profiles or partitions, etc- and even stuff that overlaps. Often it needs to be fixed size partitions, but it is apparently NOT impossible to create.
I am aware of Shufflecake attempting to make a solution for Linux, and yes, a Hidden OS option that is forensic- invisible.<p>But nothing has come out yet - and especially, nothing in this vein for phones.<p>It would be nice to see the day where, if you travel to a hostile country, you can tell them you have just one profile, and if they ask, you could theoretically mention a 2nd, and then show it- but you might have 3 more - and they'd all be immune to forensic inspection if the system is built right.(Yes, there's often issues you have to be careful of ,like setting this up so you dont destroy data when in other profiles, but that's not as important)<p>This is how you solve this problem in the long run-make computing devices impossible to analyze, but standardized.
We tech guys keep thinking of tech solutions, but as someone who reluctantly has to cross a border of an even more hostile country every now and then, you have to remember that border agents are not stupid and will mark you as suspicious if your open profile does not look real enough or there are traces of encryption on the device (when they connect the phone to forensic tools, they can easily see if something looks off). Being paranoid about security is a huge red flag.<p>The only thing you can do is travel with a clean device on which you maintain a completely innocuous social presence, such as chats with parents and non-foreign friends, and some social media with normie activity. Even that would not be enough if you're an activist or otherwise personally targeted, as your real accounts are already known in that case and your only option is not to travel at all, but it reduces your chances of getting in trouble (or arrested, depending on the target country). Though it still won't help in the long run as security services collect and organize more and more data about everyone.
The full image backup solution solves that, as you never have to travel with your stuff and can upload and download it-<p>But also, things like the hidden OS, or shufflecake - they're building these so they're would be no traces.
Which is why I said this sort of thing needs to be standardized - if every phone or device naturally gets extremely high levels of security, and it's built in by default to all of them- it's not unusual anymore, is suspicious. And stems the overall ongoing data collection on everyone that you highlighted.
> 640*480 30hz or better form factor thermal camera that attaches to phones - they dont exist anymore<p>Huh. ITAR?
No, the market simply is producing quantities of low end thermals now, resolution isn't quite where it was at. This includes ones produced by European, Chinese and Israeli companies, over the past decade.
ITAR does not prohibit owning or importing tech like this, just exporting ( which would require export licenses, etc)- but the US part of the market is not competitive, the best tech now in this field available to consumers- is foreign , as of now- so ITAR has lost importance in terms of preventing high end tech from getting out - we don't have the high end tech at this time, nor are developing on the cutting edge.
> It would be nice to see the day where, if you travel to a hostile country,<p>...or, returning to one.
China can search it remotely
I responded to comments on this thread or on other threads but just in case you think this is a US thing only, it is not.<p>The UK border agents (technically counter-terrorism) can stop you at the border, force you into a room, ask for your passwords to all your devices and you don't have the right to refuse.<p>You also don't have the right to have a lawyer be in a room with you and you are compelled to answer all their questions and finally they do not need to tell you why they stopped you.<p>Then, if you are lucky they return your devices 7 days later after they have been through everything or they can keep them forever if they find something suspicious.<p>This guy (who is a British citizen) went through it last year and talks about the whole procedure: <a href="https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=-5S1uLE7K9KG_gNj" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=-5S1uLE7K9KG_gNj</a>
I know the focus is on him getting searched and all, but I think what’s important is the auto-tagging or flagging of people based on something like a post made online or similar. This is far worse as it implicates mass surveillance, mass AI use to automate what should be done after due diligence, and how that obviously can and will he used politically as opposed to criminally.
I remember going down a rabbit hole of Youtube border security videos (like the TV show "Cops" but for customs and the border) and was shocked at how much power they have. It doesn't seem to be uniquely American either as the show takes place in Canada and Australia as well.<p>They'll go through everything: phones, journals, mail. They'll straight up call people in someone's phone and question them if they think it's relevant.
Which government?
lol no they can't, I forgot the password
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