13 comments

  • miyoji46 minutes ago
    The good part of this: don&#x27;t fall into the trap of believing the proposition &quot;an idiot disagrees with me, so I must be right&quot;. That&#x27;s solid advice, idiots believe countless true things and geniuses believe innumerable false things. The intelligence of a random interlocutor has nothing to do with the validity of their opinions, really, so it shouldn&#x27;t serve as evidence one way or another. Generally, I try to pay attention to good <i>arguments</i> against my ideas, not good <i>arguers</i>.<p>I think the advice for who to listen to is very bad, though. He calls it being &quot;slightly elitist&quot;, but his bar is beneath the ground. The example for discussing politics is knowing what the three branches of government are - I knew that when I was 8 and I don&#x27;t think I had anything interesting to say about politics back then. I definitely couldn&#x27;t have given a meaningful critique on the latest policy debate, and neither can anyone possessing merely the most basic knowledge of rudimentary facts on the topic.
    • imoverclocked24 minutes ago
      I think knowing about the branches of your government is a prerequisite to having an opinion or good argument about it. It’s not sufficient to just know that but it’s a good filter in the USA where a surprising number of people have “opinions” but lack the most basic knowledge.
      • miyoji16 minutes ago
        It&#x27;s a prerequisite, but so is breathing. It&#x27;s necessary but not sufficient.<p>The bar I like to use is pretty simple: do you know who represents you in Congress (I am American so this is my bias, but substitute your country&#x27;s equivalent if there is one)? As in, your state&#x27;s two Senators and your district&#x27;s Representative? If not, you probably don&#x27;t vote or don&#x27;t pay attention when you do, and you&#x27;ve definitely never called your Congresspeople to complain about their votes, so you probably don&#x27;t really care that much about whatever it is you say you care about, since you haven&#x27;t done the easiest thing you can do to make a change.<p>It&#x27;s not perfect, and no criteria will be, but there are <i>tons</i> of people who can rattle off &quot;executive, legislative, judiciary&quot; who nevertheless don&#x27;t know ball.
        • dataflow12 minutes ago
          &gt; and you&#x27;ve definitely never called your Congresspeople to complain about their votes<p>Or, you know, you haven&#x27;t lived at the same address for twenty years. In your imagined world where every single citizen either has something so pressing to call their representatives about or is just ignorant, you&#x27;re still basically filtering out everybody who moved for a job&#x2F;college&#x2F;SO&#x2F;whatever recently. I guess in your mind it&#x27;s only fitting that they&#x27;re disqualified from having an opinion? For reference about 12% of Americans change residence each year.
          • EA-31672 minutes ago
            As always everyone is entitled to their opinions, the question is how much should the rest of us care.
  • hingler367 minutes ago
    I agree with a lot of this, and the framing is new to me and I really appreciate it. I especially appreciate the acknowledgement that there isn&#x27;t necessarily anything wrong with having extreme beliefs; &quot;extreme&quot; is a label most often applied by antagonists of such beliefs. But I definitely feel like there can be a pipeline where one extreme belief may lead to others simply because they are also labelled extreme and not for a more recognizable reason.
  • ZoomZoomZoom3 minutes ago
    What a breath of fresh air! If only people were in control of their own selves to stick to this kind of balanced and open-minded disposition.
  • woodruffw9 minutes ago
    I think the advice at the end of this post is essentially sound: you should pre-filter your evaluation of others’ opinions through their understanding of related topics. But that isn’t elitist, and I think we shouldn’t call it that! It’s a form of media and cultural literacy we should be encouraging people to have; there isn’t (and shouldn’t) be anything elite about it.
  • cgyvbunji53 minutes ago
    &gt; it’s very very easy to be negatively polarized by a ton of bad conversations with normal people about it, until you feel like the whole rest of the world is crazy<p>Why wouldn&#x27;t the world be crazy, though? What reason do we have to assume that the world is not crazy? Most reasons are tautological when you really unpack them.
    • Georgelemental47 minutes ago
      Of course the world is crazy. But so are you
      • mapontosevenths20 minutes ago
        Agreed, but also: Just because they&#x27;re crazy, it doesn&#x27;t mean they&#x27;re wrong.
  • gibbitz55 minutes ago
    I think the problem here is that we have a bias for those who agree with us that outweighs our patience in searching for oppositional opinions that are well founded. From a liberal bubble it is quite hard to find conservative viewpoints that aren&#x27;t based on unobserved apriori belief or strawman arguments. It feels like being a heavyweight surrounded by lightweights and it makes me feel like I need a better sparring partner, I just can&#x27;t find one...
  • zahlman1 hour ago
    &gt; Don&#x27;t update positively on your extremist beliefs whenever you hear a bad argument against them<p>Two problems:<p>1. There are beliefs people hold approximately as strongly as they hold &quot;the Sun will rise tomorrow&quot;, so &quot;updating&quot; is kinda irrelevant.<p>2. How many people actually think any of their beliefs are &quot;extremist&quot;? And if they don&#x27;t, they won&#x27;t consider the warning to apply.<p>And after digging in further:<p>3. Many people reasonably believe that their discussion circles already filter out a lot of &quot;average people&quot; and thus expect a higher standard of discourse from their ideological opponents. When that still doesn&#x27;t happen, it naturally seems like stronger evidence.<p>4. (Insert generic annoyance at veganism discourse here.)
    • jp_sc57 minutes ago
      One big problem is that lately this kind of extremism has become more like a cult: even considering the idea that the “others” might have some truth (while being wrong about the rest) is treated like blasphemy
  • stymaar59 minutes ago
    The key problem is social media feed boosting “engagement”. Balanced, well thought comments don&#x27;t bring much engagement so they end up being ignored by the algorithm while outrageously stupid takes generate a lot of (negative) engagement, some of which being equally stupid which will bring more engagement than the sensible responses and so on. And at the end if the day, all you see in your social media feed is stupid people sharing at least some of your values arguing with even stupider people (or so you think, at least) who have the opposite views.<p>This is obviously harmful for society but also obviously the best outcome for the platform who wants to sell your attention to advertisers.
  • pstuart17 minutes ago
    Here&#x27;s One Weird Trick™ to avoid being an ideologue: be ok with being wrong.<p>Flipping that over: aspire to be correct in your beliefs, not in &quot;being right&quot;.<p>Karl Popper (the man behind the <i>Intolerance of Intolerance</i> &quot;paradox) identified it: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Falsifiability" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Falsifiability</a>
    • mapontosevenths5 minutes ago
      I only recently learned that most peoples beliefs are not &quot;factual beliefs&quot;. Since most of mine are, I thought that&#x27;s how other people work. I think Popper may have made the same mistake by assuming &quot;correctness&quot; is always the primary value a belief offers.<p>The other kind of beliefs are &quot;Symbolic beliefs.&quot; Symbolic beliefs are not held because they are true, or because they are useful on their own. They&#x27;re held because they signal that you belong to the tribe. They are similar to the &quot;Alief&quot;, which is an automatic unequestioned belief. Most Symbolic beliefs are aliefs, but not all.<p>Since learning about this I&#x27;ve been trying to identify my own aliefs and symbolic beliefs and question them. It turns out I have more than I&#x27;d realized. We probably all do.
  • jrflowers43 minutes ago
    I like that the author doesn’t clarify what constitutes an extremist idea aside from suggesting that he doesn’t believe in any. “Extremism is when people, who are dumb, don’t know facts unlike me, who is very smart” is a kick ass theme for an essay
    • yunwal19 minutes ago
      Read: &quot;I did not even attempt to read the article&quot;
    • miyoji38 minutes ago
      &quot;I’m not against extremist ideas on principle. I have my own, the main one being that animal welfare is a much larger urgent catastrophe than most people believe.&quot;
  • ihsw1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • NoMoreNicksLeft1 hour ago
    [flagged]
    • Erem33 minutes ago
      What in that blog made you write him off? I also clicked through and found very thoughtful writing on the topic, though I still disagree with their position as I understand it.
  • sfblah46 minutes ago
    His arguments would have more force if he didn’t use them to smuggle in his ridiculous vegan stuff.
    • Erem31 minutes ago
      He calls his position on animal welfare “extremist”. That’s hardly a smuggling.<p>And anyways I found his linked blog post pretty thought provoking, even though I hold a different position than the author.
      • sfblah11 minutes ago
        Fine. Not smuggling then “advocating”. It doesn’t actually matter, since it hurts the overall force of his point. Like, if he’s detected this trend why not learn from it himself?
        • SpicyLemonZest3 minutes ago
          Because he wants to be clear that you don’t face a choice between turning crazy and believing only things that the people around you consider normal. You can believe strange, extreme things and still be reasonable about them.