This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research:<p><a href="https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312" rel="nofollow">https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312</a><p>Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.<p>Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
I read a while back that our brains produce roughly 0.3 mg of melatonin when signaling us to go to sleep. When I occasionally do use melatonin I split a 1mg pill into half or thirds. I find that it works well enough to help me fall asleep. Wondering how the study would look if hwy used 1/2 mg doses.
I used to do this too, but I learned that will give you inconsistent dosage as the pills aren't guaranteed to have the active ingredient spread uniformly.
Go to the Netherlands, to the Kruidvat (or Etos or something similar) and just buy a lifetime worth of supply of Melatonin. It's 0.1 mg.<p>I'm Dutch and live here. But my wife is American. If I ever happen to live in the US (chances are there in my lifetime). I'm going to employ this strategy.<p>I don't trust the US with this and the Netherlands has proven itself to me in this sense. There are probably many more European countries that do this well. I'm simply not changing a winning team.<p>But I'd love to hear from other people that believe they found a good melatonin supply in a country. I'm curious.
One can get kids doses that are 0.5 or 0.25mg. Eg see this 0.25 product on Amazon -
<a href="https://a.co/d/0j74eWFP" rel="nofollow">https://a.co/d/0j74eWFP</a>
I feel that the 1mg pill bottle that I have already is my lifetime supply, given the rate at which I use it.
You don't trust US with..what exactly? Melatonin? Get a grip.
So much for a good faith discussion here. I don't appreciate that you tell me to "get a grip". You're not steelmanning. Instead, your reaction comes off as a knee jerk reaction. There are enough communities where I have to come up with defenses to deal with that nonsense. Don't do it here please.<p>US melatonin measured dosage can be 4x as much as what is reported [1, 2].<p>Also 0.3 mg is the recommended dose [4]. A lot of doses in the US are way higher than 0.3 mg. In the Netherlands it's stupidly easy to find 0.1 mg doses (e.g. at the Kruidvat or at the Etos). It's in part why I never looked further.<p>And since you're new here (55 days ago, 13 karma as of writing). I strongly recommend you to read the HN guidelines [3]. All people who are on HN should follow them, not knowing them degrades the community experience that we're having here.<p>> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.<p>> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive<p>There are a few others that apply as well.<p>[1] Cohen PA, Avula B, Wang YH, Katragunta K, Khan I. Quantity of Melatonin and CBD in Melatonin Gummies Sold in the US. JAMA. 2023;329(16):1401–1402. doi:10.1001/jama.2023.2296<p><a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10130950/" rel="nofollow">https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10130950/</a><p>[2] Erland LAE, Saxena PK. Melatonin Natural Health Products and Supplements: Presence of Serotonin and Significant Variability of Melatonin Content. J Clin Sleep Med. 2017;13(2):275–281. doi:10.5664/jcsm.6462<p><a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.5664/jcsm.6462" rel="nofollow">https://link.springer.com/article/10.5664/jcsm.6462</a><p>[3] <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html</a><p>[4] <a href="https://gwern.net/melatonin" rel="nofollow">https://gwern.net/melatonin</a>
(referring to melatonin) yeah this is valid. I used to take melatonin every night, found out about the problems with us supply, couldn't find anything nearing 1/2 mg, and gave up. I took kids gummies for a few weeks, but I still think they were 1mg.
Pharma and Healthcare was the implication I believe. The US approach to these things has a bad reputation internationally though I am informed that it’s an amazing system if you’re rich.
Let’s not conflate US pharma with their healthcare more generally.<p>The US is dominant in pharmaceutical and biotech, and FDA is generally excellent as a regulator, despite (IMO) sometimes being too conservative and resistant to any ideas not gestated within the agency. There are weird quirks (like the wide and wacky dosages of melatonin available over the counter, in this example) but most countries have such quirks.
Irrelevant due to a scoping problem. If you’re peddling a dietary supplement there is virtually no regulation at all.<p>As long as you don’t say anything in the marketing material, you’re good.<p>The only science in supplements is the marketing.
As I understand it, the FDA doesn't regulate melatonin as it's not sold as a medication, but as a supplement.
Are you implying that everyone in the US is taking unknown quantities of OTC medications?<p>Unless you have some data to backup this claim, it is tinfoil hat speaking.
US melatonin measured dosage can be 4x as much as what is reported [1, 2].<p>Have you never looked into stuff like this? It's all over social media and the claims are relatively easy to verify. I'm asking because I need to know if I'm in a bubble or not.<p>[1] Cohen PA, Avula B, Wang YH, Katragunta K, Khan I. Quantity of Melatonin and CBD in Melatonin Gummies Sold in the US. JAMA. 2023;329(16):1401–1402. doi:10.1001/jama.2023.2296<p><a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10130950/" rel="nofollow">https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10130950/</a><p>[2] Erland LAE, Saxena PK. Melatonin Natural Health Products and Supplements: Presence of Serotonin and Significant Variability of Melatonin Content. J Clin Sleep Med. 2017;13(2):275–281. doi:10.5664/jcsm.6462<p><a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.5664/jcsm.6462" rel="nofollow">https://link.springer.com/article/10.5664/jcsm.6462</a>
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Long ago when I paid attention to this, the wisdom was to watch out because most melatonin pills are targeted to geriatric patients. Old folks need a significant boost to their melatonin to deal with eroding sleep quality, not a little hit of it. So as a 30 year old or younger you want a fraction of what grandad is taking.
I love that people have developed a "sleep stack" without ever even knowing if what they take is improving the effects of sleep.
"sleep stack" gets my vote for winner of the 2026 "How You Know You're On HN" award
People would rather get a wifi connected smart bed and track their sleep stats with a smart watch than put their phone away and read a book before bed
"Americans have a special horror of giving up control, of letting things happen in their own way without interference. They would like to jump down into their stomachs and digest the food and shovel the shit out."<p>William Burroughs - Naked Lunch
To be fair, the 8sleep is pretty nice because it heats and cools you so you get better sleep, and you can still put your phone away if you have one.
Which is total unrelated and therefore i dont know what you want to commit to the discussion.
It’s not unrelated. Avoiding light before bed, seeing sunlight in the morning, and keeping a regular waketime, has a great impact on sleep.
Thanks for finding that!<p>I apologize for not reading the full study before submitting it on Hacker News and for the misleading headline on the frontpage given the context of the dosages used, I really should have noticed that the link only contained an abstract.
I take 300mcg when I’m having a hard time getting to sleep or if I’ve had a lot of caffeine. Mostly because Scott Alexander told me to.
I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?
Vitamin B12 supplements can be found in a range covering about 4 orders of magnitude. The RDA is 2.4 ug/day and the Costco daily multivitamin provides 6mcg, but here is someone selling 10,000 ug supplements: <a href="https://www.hartzells.com/b-12-10000mcg-90960" rel="nofollow">https://www.hartzells.com/b-12-10000mcg-90960</a><p>It's easy to find any other order of magnitude between those if you like. A half-pound of beef liver would give you about 186 ug.
They're supplements, not medication, but I've seen crazy variation in the dosages of Vitamin D pills.
I suspect the dosage and absorption isn't fully understood yet or very individual. For me some 2mg pills work fine and other 3mg pills don't; currently I use 4mg time-release and it's mostly fine. 1 mg is definitely not enough for me.<p>I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.
Yeah I'm in the 300 mcg camp, I take a time release formulation, try to take it early but often it isn't far off bedtime.
Seriously, separating the 2mg and 5mg groups would make this a lot more informative
And having a 0.3mg (300mcg) group - the dose many meticulous online self-experimenters have found sufficient, a mere 15% of their lowest-tested 2mg.<p>Would a headline "morning coffee found to cause stomach problems and anxiety" be reasonable, if the smallest dose tested was 7 cups – and that dosage fact was omitted from the attached abstract/story?
Coffee isn't mentioned. Morning cognition could be impacted by whether subjects take caffeine before starting tasks.
Indeed the best melatonin supplement i took was a small spray bottle where each hit was 500mg
5 is almost universally too much.<p>4 is almost universally too much..<p>3 is the most I’ve ever recommended.<p>More than enough.
I take a 3mg every night, but I've read that independent labs have studied the common OTC brands and found wildly different Melatonin content than advertised.<p>So I really don't know how much I take.
less than 1 is plenty
5 as in milligrams?! I’ve found 10mg is sometimes just enough, but 20-30mg is where I actually feel a noticeable difference
Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.
I too found myself most productive after 9 pm.<p>But when I moved on my own I found that it shifted quite naturally. I'd wake up earlier and go to bed earlier, and then productive peak shifted to be during working hours.<p>I think for me the key factor was primarily that the house was quiet after 9 pm.<p>When I was on my own it was quiet all day.
But how's this related to melatonin? Did you use it on those 7 years to progressively switch?
Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock
As a night owl who tried to fight it for too long my advice is don't change your natural circadian rythm. For some reason hustle influencer culture made us believe we should wake up at 6AM for a productive day. We all have 24 hours, just do what works for you.<p>Most of Europe doesn't wake up that early. Only the US is obsessed with 4AM hustle culture. Stop that!<p>I tried to change my sleep for 10 years and for the last 2 I have been embracing the night owl rhythm. And yes I have kids and an amazing partner.
Waking up at 6 AM and doing workout did wonders to my mental health.
It's silly to say that "Europe" has substantially different working hours for the majority of the population, compared to the US. Grindset hustle sigma influencers are an outlier of course.
Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting extreme blue light filtering glasses too (make sure they cover your eyes fully so light doesn't leak in from the side). Looks ridiculous, but that helped a lot. Finally, add a wind down routine that does not involve any kind of mental or physical excitement. For me it was as simple as walking around the block for 10-15min. But it can be anything that doesn't stimulate you in any way. You can try to sit in the darkness and meditate.<p>You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night and getting up in the morning. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds and have no automatic opener you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.
I tried all those things, none worked.<p>You are assuming every brain is wired like yours. It has been proven multiple times that we all have different hormonal levels during the day based on the light patterns. Some people only produce melatonin several hours after it's getting dark.<p>Your assumption of a world where we all behave the same regarding sleep is one of the reason why the US became such a bad 6AM hustle culture.
You are conflating several aspects here. The 6am hustle culture originated during the industrial revolution in Britain.<p>And the reason why people struggle with melatonin cycles is because it is almost impossible to escape artificial light. A single bright light exposure at night can acutely alter your hormonal levels. I'm not saying that what I have done is easy or even possible for everyone.
What worked for me is mirtazapine at 7.5 mg (higher will make it a stimulant anyway). The irony is my doctor is really sceptical. A friend prescribed it to me, who is also a doctor. And he was a bit pissed at my doctor. Quite literally: "your doctor can fucking call me if she questions my methods and I will overflow her with research on this" type of vibe. He did quite some research into it. And I trust him.<p>Of course, do your own research, consult your own doctor, not a doctor. And as you say: it's not for everyone. But not enough people mention it.<p>Let me it at least kick it off by looking for a study myself [1, 2, 3] (I just used Google Scholar).<p>Four things I've noticed:<p>1. For the studies saying it only works for 6 weeks, not if you only take it three to four times per week (three is better). You can literally feel the habituation go up and down when you play with the dose. I become really sensitive to it within days.<p>2. First time I took it, it gave me a sedated feel for like 14 hours. So the first few times, you need to desensitize a bit to it actually (don't drive a car the first few times).<p>3. For me, when paired with 0.3 mg melatonin 2 hours before bed, it stacks.<p>4. When I'm super stressed, it doesn't work. I need to be and feel normal.<p>Again: not a doctor, not medical advice. My advice is to discuss this with your doctor and see if they know anything about it. If they don't, well then, I guess my doctor friend knows something that other doctors don't.<p>[1] <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publication/395201634_Therapeutic_Effects_and_Safety_of_Mirtazapine_for_Insomnia_in_Major_Depressive_Disorder_Findings_from_a_6-Week_Open-Label_Pre-_and_Post-Intervention_Study/links/6972230752773b62239ca58b/Therapeutic-Effects-and-Safety-of-Mirtazapine-for-Insomnia-in-Major-Depressive-Disorder-Findings-from-a-6-Week-Open-Label-Pre-and-Post-Intervention-Study.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publi...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583" rel="nofollow">https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583</a><p>[3] <a href="https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.0173.full.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.017...</a>
Interesting you're the first person to mention this.<p>I had chronic insomnia for >25 years (my entire life) making it extremely difficult to hold down a job or generally interact with society. I've since been on Mirtazipine for about 15 years and the difference is unbelievable.<p>In the UK it's only dispensed in 15, 30 or 45mg. I was started on 15mg but that left me extremely groggy for most of the next day. My doctor convinced me to move up to 30mg and I'm able to mostly sleep and actually function the next day.<p>It's not all roses and there's a handful of side effects. Personally I had about 6 months of metallic taste in my mouth and it absolutely buggered my sex drive. A few friends jokingly call it "mirfatapine" as it can make them binge-eat and put on weight, but personally I find the good absolutely outweighs the bad and it's literally life changing.<p>I know if I forget to take it, because I suddenly realise it's 4am and I'm still wide awake and gibbering. If I'm working festivals then I can _choose_ not to take it and go back to my old routine working 52-hour shifts before falling asleep.<p>Whilst I'm not overly thrilled at taking psychoactive drugs nightly, it's been the only thing I've ever found (and I spent a lot of my childhood trying anything and everything the doctors recommended and self-medicating in various forms) that actually makes it possible to sleep nightly, and therefore function long term when I'm forced to wake up for work. If you're desperate and out of options it's absolutely worth trying, but do be aware it takes months to become effective.
I take 5 to 10 mg a night.<p>I have taken 20mg, but if I don't end up sleeping made me feel really off/groggy. But that I think more so cause I didn't sleep.<p>I can take 10mg, get waken up in a couple hours by the kids or pets and feel fully awake and well rested.
This is how I did it: this is about two things: mornings and evenings and both need attention. Set a new wake up time. Deduct 7 hours from it. Deduct one more for buffer. This tells you when you need to be in bed with lights out and trying to fall asleep to then get the mandatory 7h of sleep to be a functional human being in the morning. If your new wake target is 5:45, you need to be in bed lights out at 22:45 and since 21:45 with no screens. So you need to deduct another hour to cut off screens early, and in optimal case like -3 more to cut food intake and -6 more to cut caffeine intake. I got some reminders on my phone which let me know the time comes, so I spend the last hour before nights out reading or writing or whatever. So that’s evenings. In the morning my phone rings and to turn it off I need to scan a QR code in my bathroom (alarmy app). This forces me out of bed and then I drink about 500ml of water. I also have a smart plug with a LED light on it which go on together with the alarm clock and goes on for 20 mins. Once wake, I spend 15 minutes in front of it getting light in my face which signals the body the day starts. Then I get dressed and go out for a short quick walk/run outside (aka powerwalk) which gets my heart working. Then I come back, make coffee and start work. This way I get enough good quality sleep + each morning physical signals (water, light, movement) that signal my body it is action time. I was very surprised that already after a week my body started waking up minutes before the alarm clock! And that’s after decades of irregular late sleep! But consistency is key: early sleep and early wake up on as many days as possible. It is totally doable and you can streamline in into a simple process which doesn’t take much time or effort.
It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.
Anecdotally, I’m a night owl by default but if I force myself up for exercise at 7am, I am tired that night and I am better (mentally and physically) that day. My workouts aren’t as good as if they were after work, but it doesn’t matter if I’m going 3/4 times a week.<p>My mood is better, my routine matches the “world” better, and I would say I’m mentally sharper on those days too. YMMV
You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.
Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm!<p>Recently, I started using an app to track my caffeine consumption during a day (there are a bunch of those in the stores), and even though I haven't stopped drinking coffee and not planning to, I'm trying to stay within a reasonable limit and switch to decaf if I'm close to it.
Why is it worth it? Why are you fighting against your natural circadian rhythm? We still all got 24 hours right?<p>My background is that as the poster above, I have always been a night owl, with the ability to function and wake up earlier if I need to.<p>For years I have tried to change it because of beliefs like yours that it was "worth it". Whenever I tried to change it I would feel unergetic, crappy and unmotivated. I would stumble on words and have terrible sleep. Yes, I tried to stop caffeine, use candle light only, ton of supplements. Nothing worked.<p>Since then I have accepted I'm a night owl, and I should embrace it. I have never felt better since the day I have decided to stop fighting it.<p>The 6AM hustle seems amazing in theory but at the end of the day we all only got 24 hours.
That's either before, or after you have kids (if ever). As long as the school starts, you have (almost) no choice.
Taking caffeine is fighting against natural circadian rhythm, avoiding caffeine isn't.
I live in the US and I take 300mcg - Extended Release - once in a while mainly after/before long flight - (depending on the time). And it works fine. It doesn’t work well for me after a good meal. So pop two or take it before the meal.
Next, the same experiment could be done with individuals who would be more likely to use melatonin supplements, or even just a broader group than "healthy young adults". I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed since there's a high chance these healthy young adults don't have the problem the supplements are designed for. I'm not surprised about "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures" for these people.<p>Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.<p>*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
> I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed<p>This is from the first paragraph in the abstract:<p>> Exogenous melatonin has been shown to improve sleep in individuals with sleep disorders, such as insomnia and delayed sleep phase disorder. However, research on the effect of exogenous melatonin on sleep in healthy young adults is limited.
Exactly. The relevant comparison for someone with insomnia isn't melatonin vs perfect natural sleep, it's melatonin plus some morning grogginess vs not getting enough sleep at all
Wouldnt you be less efficient with less sleep ? For a startup you should improve sleep quality
Generally yes, and I definitely am an advocate of getting enough sleep and good quality sleep.<p>Regarding "sleep more to be more efficient"; Hard to say without visiting a parallel universe. But in this specific case it was really about having enough hours in a day. Most of the work did not require me at my sharpest. If I was in the same situation today, Claude would be doing these menial things for me and I'd sleep more. But we didn't have Claude then.<p>It was a tech startup that I wanted to build without any outside money. With investments of course I'd just hire more people. I had luck and perseverance, and everything turned out great. I had 100% ownership and sold it for private equity. Now I only work because I like solving tricky problems, and not working gets incredibly boring after a while.
Yes, but this is sadly a lesson most founders (especially american ones) need to self teach.<p>I certainly did and struggle with both sleep and stress induced anxiety, 9 years after my founder burnout.
Hard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.
The study is on "healthy young adults". How much improvement would you expect on someone who is already "healthy"? It's not like they are going to ascend and become superhuman.
Anecdote - I've used it dozens of times and I'm always foggy in the AM, so I avoid it if I have to be sharp the next morning. Perhaps it's a coincidence and this study is flawed, but I can believe it pretty easily.
What dose are you using? Most OTC melatonin supplements are sold in a 3 or 5mg dose, while the correct one is ~0.3mg or even lower for some people. High dose may be related to the fogginess.
same here.
I use 5HTP instead, apparently the same chemical pathway just goes in at a different point. no fog in the morning at all. Nice and sharp, feel good.
My understanding is that you ought to take melatonin in small doses (0.3 or so) an hour or two before sleep in order to <i>get tired</i>, whereupon you sleep (normally, ish, unless you take too much and then you get crazy dreams or sleep paralysis). If I take it and go right to bed I always wake up still in the 'window' of its effect.
I was taking small doses of melatonin before go to sleep for a year or two. To help me begin to sleep. I have a tinnitus. Usually I have a deep sleep. I can get sleep, I can sleep all night without problems. it's only the first hour that can be problematic for me.
I stoped like half year, and I don't having problems to sleep.
Recently, I started taking a 3mg dose of melatonin for 1-3 days after flying to a timezone requiring a fair amount of effort to get a full night's sleep (3-6+ hours time difference), and find it helps to quickly get me on the new schedule. I maybe feel a <i>little</i> groggy, but nothing unsettling.<p>Note: I take a trip like this maybe once or twice a year (no more), and typically wake up with zero grogginess otherwise.
Not sleeping impairs my morning cognition - a lot. Melatonin is part of the rotating stacks I use to mitigate insomnia.<p>My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.
As with so many experiments, the study itself is clear and testing something valid, but when it gets shared somewhere like reddit/HN/Facebook etc. everyone takes the broadest possible, unintended reading.<p>- study: we tested <i>specifically</i> healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect <i>on this cohort</i>. We make <i>zero claims</i> about any other cohort.<p>- every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
Even 200 mcg is enough to give me brain fog. I stick with 100 mcg unless I'm really having a hard time falling asleep.
I've noticed if I use the f.lux feature for just 15 minutes I begin to get tired at night. Blue light is a hell of a drug.
There is a world where melatonin is not worth it in the short run, but the result flips after a few days of sleep deprivation in the control group.
Could it just be dosage? Commonly found dosage is 10-20x what you'd actually secrete and IIRC absorption is actually quite good.
I stopped taking melatonin because I had problems waking up in the morning and was getting nasty headaches even with half a dose (1 mg).<p>Edit: Maybe I should try reducing the dose even further (to 200 μg) as mentioned in other posts here
Anecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.
My experience with Melatonin was very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it landed like a hammer and I was very groggy the next day. Sometimes it seemed not to work at all. This was with all sorts of doses.<p>I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
Does this effect depend on dosage or timing? Would be curious to see the full study.
It just says that when you slept well you can be a bit drowsy.
yup I can attest to that but it's better than getting no sleep
As a long term insomniac the head line result is not surprising. My overall experience with "sleep aides" is they all lead to impairments in morning cognition. The worst of which don't last just the morning... (seroquel, I'm pointing at you...) Melatonin is surprisingly powerful for a hormone / supplement. For me, it hits like a truck, and I find it strong enough that I had to stop taking it.<p>I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors.<p>I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function...<p>It's a slippery slope, trust me on that.
Yeah, sure.<p>I would love to find a natural or lifestyle remedy to common RLS or PLMD symptoms that I get from time to time. The problem is that for some people it's impossible to identify what are the triggers and sometimes it's just genetics you have no control over.<p>But sure, do tell people to avoid doctors and make them suffer even though there are drug remedies that don't cause dependence and augumentation.
Being charitable to OP, I think their advice is to look after your health before hyper focusing on your sleep. I’ve had a similar experience - the better I care for my body the better my sleep is (and the opposite is a self reinforcing cycle). For me, personally, CBT and therapy helped hugely with the feelings of overwhelm I got from feeling like I wasn’t getting enough sleep and gave me the tools to deal with the fact that I’m not going to fall asleep at 11:30 and wake up at 7:30 like I would like to. It’s not perfect, but what is?
I could be convinced, however for me personally sleep defines how I feel throught the day, and if my sleep is bad or not restorative, it's almost impossible to take care of myself and adhere to "being healthy and mindful" because it requires just too much energy I won't have.
Yeah - that’s what I mean by it being a self reinforcing cycle. I have no kids which helps hugely, but I have a checklist of things to do that I made during a period when I was feeling good and had good habits. I don’t think it matters what that list is, but I’ve found that doing those things on that list has 0 impact on my mood that day but “would you rather be tired and not exercised than tired and exercised” is a good motivator for me.<p>Some element of it is not taking advantage of your body when you are restored - if you empty the tank every time you’re feeling good you’re always going to yo-yo a bit.
Surprisingly, one thing that tremendously helped my sleep quality, and several persons around is wim hof breathing.<p>I used to do it in the morning, and my brother recommanded I'd switch to just before sleep.<p>The difference is stark in effects, and you fall asleep like a baby even when stressed, using red light, with heat waves, etc...<p>Given it's free and don't have the side effects of regular melatonin supplement, I would encourage every one to give it at least a one week trial.
> The results suggest that negative performance effects of exogenous melatonin may outweigh any benefits for healthy young adults<p>Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise.<p>What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage. melatonin should also be consumed in a particular time period to correctly trigger the circadian rhythm. long term consistent melatonin use is not advised outside of special cases (eg elderly where morning cognition is unimpactful). irregardless I don't believe that consuming modified release melatonin is healthy long term, because it breaks the circadian rhythm ... but if it works it works.<p>if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
>melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage.<p>It's available on Amazon in doses as low as 100mcg: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC</a> Are you saying this because you believe the correct dose is on the order of double-digit mcg, or because you're under the impression that the lowest available dose is single-digit mg?
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