18 comments

  • hellojomp3 minutes ago
    &gt; “if the cost of a resource goes up, the total spend on that resource can go down”<p>This is tautologically true in the limiting case of infinite cost.
  • jihadjihad39 minutes ago
    I can’t tell if this is a troll post or not, but either way, the concept the author seems to be looking for is called the “Law of Demand” [0].<p>0: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_demand" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_demand</a>
  • nbernard3 hours ago
    &gt; Jevons paradox happens when the cost of a resource goes down, but the total spend on that resource goes up.<p>I would argue that is not Jevons paradox but standard supply and demand (and this &quot;reverse Jevons paradox&quot; too). Jevons paradox occurs when a more <i>efficient</i> use of a resource leads to an increase in its use (instead of a decrease as a first order analysis would suggest).
    • dguest52 minutes ago
      Supply and demand says when something is cheaper (or produced more efficiently), people will use more of it. But the critical part is that it doesn&#x27;t say people will <i>spend more</i> on it.<p>Jevon&#x27;s paradox is a special case of supply and demand, where people actually end up <i>spending more money</i> because something is cheaper.<p>It&#x27;s interesting because consumption then grows in unpredictable ways: it can drive innovation even in cases where markets are constrained by monopolies, for example, where in non-Jevons cases producers would have no incentive to lower prices.
      • rcxdude13 minutes ago
        You can rephrase it as the demand curve times the price (i.e. total spend on something vs the price) sometimes has a slope of less than -1.
      • jagged-chisel37 minutes ago
        So like buying the larger jar of jam that costs more than the smaller jar because the cost per ounce is less for the larger jar.
        • benrutter18 minutes ago
          Not OP but <i>yes if</i> you consume more jam (not if you consume the same over a period of time, because you&#x27;re then just paying less for jam over a wider time scale).<p>The example I&#x27;ve heard given is accounting and spreadsheets. It made accountancy cheaper, but people then started asking more questions and analysis became a thing.<p>Rather than just taking the reduced spend as profit, companies wound up increasing their accountancy spend overall.
        • rcxdude14 minutes ago
          Not exactly, unless you still wind up eating the larger jars at the same rate as the smaller ones.
    • martinhath2 hours ago
      &gt; Jevons paradox occurs when a more efficient use of a resource leads to an increase in its use<p>I think these are the same, because efficiency is value over cost. In the original formulation of the paradox, a more efficient steam engine lead to a rise in coal consumption. You can look at this as a &quot;money buys coal, coal drives locomotion&quot; system, where the latter part was improved. Modulo practical issues with coal (transport, storage, etc), dropping the price of coal would (probably?) lead to the same effect, since the end result is that locomotion per money is increased. For an outside observer, it doesn&#x27;t matter if you get more coal per money or more locomotion per coal.<p>&gt; standard supply and demand<p>Standard supply and demand doesn&#x27;t say anything about increase of spend. If food prices drop, I&#x27;m not going to buy more food. I might buy better food for the same budget, but there&#x27;s no reason why my total food spend should increase.
    • friendzis3 hours ago
      &gt; I would argue that is not Jevons paradox but standard supply and demand (and this &quot;reverse Jevons paradox&quot; too).<p>Kinda yes. How do you derive total spend from supply-demand curves? Multiply price and quantity at an intersection point. Likewise, you can predict total spend by multiplying p and q on the demand curve.<p>The difference in total spend is difference between these areas. For the total spend to increase with a drop in price, the the demand must rise faster.<p>Jevon&#x27;s paradox implies that the price equilibrium is at the highly elastic portion of the demand curve.<p>&gt; Jevons paradox occurs when a more efficient use of a resource leads to an increase in its use<p>While that&#x27;s mostly true in practical reality in established economies, that does not strictly have to be the case. On the consumer side, especially in manufacturing, there&#x27;s very little difference between unit price of a good falling and input unit per output units dropping as both lead to decreased COGS. In both cases, market realities might unlock alternative approaches (the classic being robot replacing Robert), leading to increased demand.
    • fxwin3 hours ago
      I think it&#x27;s still valid to see this as an example of the Jevons paradox: Your resource is money, and reduced per-unit cost means you are using your money (resource) more efficiently. If the total spend now goes up instead of stagnating or decreasing, you&#x27;ve got Jevons
    • jpfromlondon2 hours ago
      you are absolutely correct, the author is putting the cart before the horse.
  • pu_pe2 hours ago
    Jevons Paradox is called a paradox because it is non-intuitive. It is very intuitive to conclude that when costs go up, people will use less of that thing.
    • markild40 minutes ago
      I think it&#x27;s a paradox in the same way that the non-reverse is. The spending might go down more than it&#x27;s proportion of price increase.<p>An example not anchored in anything: If public transit costs x, I&#x27;ll use it every day. If public transit suddenly costs 2x, I&#x27;m not gonna use it every other day, I&#x27;ll rather find an alternative and use 0.
  • chvid1 hour ago
    Will it happen to memory? I am looking at you guys, electron apps.
    • chvid1 hour ago
      If you had the right OS support for JS apps - all those apps that package a full chrome browser all of a sudden would have close to zero memory footprint.
  • z3t41 hour ago
    In micro economics theory they call this price elasticity where you try lowering the price to see how much more customers buy and you plot that to a graph calculator to get a curve and the bend on the curve is the price elasticity. Then you can calculate the optimal price to maximize sales.
    • amelius1 hour ago
      But you want to maximize profit, not sales.
      • kingleopold1 hour ago
        &quot;your margin is my opportunity&quot;.
  • xg154 hours ago
    &gt; <i>you might effectively kill a whole class of changes, like &quot;small refactor&quot; PRs.</i><p>Or the changes might be &quot;smuggled through&quot; in an unrelated changeset that has to go through the red tape anyway.
  • janpeuker1 hour ago
    &gt; The cost of making small changes to the codebase is so high that it becomes net-negative for a single developer to make the change<p>That&#x27;s called Software Engineering at Google
  • raincole34 minutes ago
    &gt; if the cost of a resource goes up, the total spend on that resource can go down<p>... must be a satire post, right? This is just the most plain and intuition result.
  • cubefox4 hours ago
    &gt; If you make it hard to change code by requiring multiple levels of reviews, a web of Jira tickets, a horde of people needing to sign off, and other red tape, you might effectively kill a whole class of changes<p>I remember this theater on things which were suspected to be too expensive with insiffiufficient ROI to implement, except that all the time wasted by multiple people arguing in Jira tickets, sitting in meetings, and writing specifications was likely far more expensive than just building and testing the thing.<p>For some reason, there seems to be a strong and automatic tendency for older and larger organizations to drift toward petrification through bureaucratization.
  • greenfish64 hours ago
    Now that I think about it, it&#x27;s very easy to point to reverse jevon&#x27;s paradoxes. Regulations around building housing, large org bloat + processes, when the stupid form fill that i need to fill out gets too long on some website...
    • jaynetics3 hours ago
      Indeed. My first thought was that this is a roundabout name for ordinary &quot;rulebook slowdown&quot;, but of course there are other ways to increase the cost of useful behavior, not just rules.<p>It leads to an interesting way to think about company and civic health as well. Instead of focussing purely on incentives, one might assume that many are inclined to do good stuff anyway, and then ask: are we lowering the cost of all desired behavior as much as possible? And are we doing it for as many people as possible?
  • geraneum3 hours ago
    The author has discovered the red tape.
  • smitty1e2 hours ago
    &gt; if the cost of a resource goes up, the total spend on that resource can go down.<p>Not unlike hiking taxes on the rich, seeing them vote with their feet, and revenue subsequently catering.<p>But as long as we reward politicians for delivering blame more than results, this political folly will continue.<p>Until Strein&#x27;s Law[1] kicks the teeth in.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Herbert_Stein#Stein&#x27;s_Law" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Herbert_Stein#Stein&#x27;s_Law</a>
    • neilwilson1 hour ago
      Except that revenue doesn’t crater in a floating exchange rate system. Revenue from them craters but the money moves elsewhere and revenue improves there - including an increase in total transactions. Total revenue will always be Total spend less what people decide to financially save rather than spend. Because tax are percentages and the process is a geometric series.
      • AnthonyMouse14 minutes ago
        &quot;Vote with their feet&quot; means relocating to another jurisdiction. The other jurisdiction doesn&#x27;t necessarily have to use a different currency, e.g. if businesses move from California to Texas, they both use US dollars. Likewise any two countries that both use Euros.<p>Moreover, when the destination jurisdiction <i>does</i> use a different currency, that increases demand for the destination currency and reduces demand for the original currency, i.e. it devalues the original currency. And then even if your revenue was the same in nominal dollars it would have declined in real dollars.<p>On top of that, non-uniform tax rates break your model wide open. The entities who leave can exchange their currency (independently of whether it gets devalued) for assets, so that the amount of currency (as distinct from wealth, since it&#x27;s an equal value exchange) increases in the hands of the people who pay lower tax rates. Which likewise has a negative impact on revenue, since they pay lower tax rates.
  • malkia3 hours ago
    Or also called bureaucracy
  • subhajeet21074 hours ago
    [dead]