The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.<p>There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a <i>major</i> hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).<p>As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only <i>once</i> (or maybe "once per passport") and only <i>on arrival</i>, in the EU you need to go through it both on <i>every arrival</i> and <i>every departure</i>.
What's unclear to me here is this: under this new scheme does the USA get access to the biometric data of people <i>not</i> travelling to the USA?
From the analysis linked in TFA:<p>"The automated query can be based on:
* Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of
birth, national ID number, and/or
* the fingerprint of an individual."<p>Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.
Well, a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info, even if it can be obtained by the US government through illicit means.<p>But yeah, it does sound that way, but certainly not clear cut to me what the situation is. I.e. does the agreement involve clauses about what to do if this is abused? Do we have a way to detect if theyre using this on non-travellers? Etc.
> a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info<p>A couple of counterexamples:<p>Italy's "fiscal code" is generated with a simple algorithm which can be executed manually:<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code</a><p>Sweden's "personal identity number" is public information and can be looked up by anyone:<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...</a>
This is the leaked draft: <a href="https://statewatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/wk_5183_2026pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://statewatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/wk_5183_20...</a><p>It's not clear how it is supposed to work in detail. But it sounds like it could be implemented in a way that makes illegitimate queries possible. It doesn't sound like they want to really ensure that you can catch those.
In multiple European countries, national ID numbers are public information that can be searched by name and address (i.e. Sweden)
Only the people who travel to the US should be included in this farce and vice versa the other way…
It changes the nature of the scheme quite a bit
This all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe.<p>IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.
And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.
A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.
Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...
Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.
I think a better way of describing it would be, someone broke into your house. The police said they'd patrol it, but it would take 20 years to set up. In those 20 years, no-one broke into your house. You might suspect they had other reasons for wanting to patrol outside your house.
The parent post is saying that the officer didn't show up for 20 years, with no burglaries in your neighborhood in between.
> Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once<p>Once for each arrival.
Not my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)
I have gotten fingerprinted every time i arrive, before i got a green card and after i got a green card. Not sure if its related to something else, country of origin or country im traveling from etc.
Same here, went in 2019, got fingerprinted, and went again in 2021 and 2025, and they didn't even care about my ESTA, they just waved me through.<p>The TSA agent asked me the usual questions about where I was staying, how long I was staying, I replied, and despite having printed just about everything out, he just waved me through.<p>The closest I got was a "random inspection" in an airport, and the TSA agents asked for our passports and to go through our luggage, but as soon as we flashed our Danish passports they lost all interest and just waved us through.
The point of taking biometics is they can check if the same person is travelling on the same passport each subsequent visit.<p>Sometimes they rely on just image matching, and sometimes they ask for an additional finger scan ( but not normally all fingers of all hands like first registration ).<p>So perhaps if you have a generic looking face, or have changed your appearance since the first visit you are more likely to be fingerprinted.
What is the point of them taking the fingerprints at all, if they don't verify them on entry?
No. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.
not for US citizens at least, whereas I get fingerprinted entering and exiting as an EU citizen in the EU.
Also worth nothing that if you’ve verified your ID on LinkedIn or anything that uses Persona or some other flavour of Palantir - the US already has all this data and much more.
>EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now on every arrival and departure.<p>This world is very depressing. I think this may be my last year on the planet.
I hate all this biometric scanning on all sides. As an American it makes me not want to visit the EU to avoid being scanned, and I'd understand the other way too if an EU member was visiting the us.<p>In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?<p>It's probably too late but we should try to get rid of this.
> In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?<p>This my major concern with biometrics and DNA databases. It makes the cops lazy. "Subjects fingerprints and DNA was found on the crime scene, so he's clearly the murderer". That flips the evidence around, suddenly "I" have to prove I'm innocent as opposed to the law proving I'm guilty.<p>If you can simply collect all DNA and fingerprints from a crime scene, look it up in a database and compile a list of suspects, it also eliminates the possibility that the real perpetrator didn't leave DNA or fingerprints.<p>Sure, DNA has its use, like "here's the murder weapon, and it has the suspects DNA and fingerprints on it". It's not a guarantee, but it's a closer match.<p>As for "does that happen in Europe as well", unfortunately yes. There have been cases where the police have found fingerprints and DNA and announced they had the suspect they were looking for, only for said person to be cleared weeks or months later.<p>As a general rule, DNA and fingerprints cannot be the sole evidence in EU courts. The law will need find more evidence before they can convict you. Also, no death penalty, and "lifetime" in the EU is usually around 10 years, so not a lot of people are found innocent after 30 years.
I suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.
Your DNA and fingerprints are literally everywhere you go, and they don't decay as soon as you leave. Hell, even passing close by a person can transfer your DNA to their clothes.<p>If the cops have a DNA Database, they "just" need to collect all DNA from a crime scene to compile a list of suspects, and by doing so, they're flipping the question of guilt around, you're no longer innocent until proven guilty, but guilty until proven innocent. You now have to prove you didn't "do it".
How could random prints be falsely linked to me if my prints are not in a database? It can only happen if they are.
> visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).<p>Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.
No, if you don’t change your passport you only have to scan your fingerprints once in the EU.
If you have a recent EU passport (like 6-8 years), biometrics like fingerprints are already in the chip, and you won't need to be fingerprinted upon arrival or departure, at least in theory, I wouldn't be surprised if some bureaucrat decided that the passport data can't be trusted and we'll fingerprint everybody anyway.
I have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit.<p>The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.
i just traveled to the EU last week and you're wrong, got fingerprinted on entrance and exit
So let the people who want to go to the US do that and don't send data from the vast majority of people who will never visit the US there.
It's claimed that only data of traveler's will be retrieved by the US but it's not 2012 anymore, we all know better.
Both the USA and the EU are doing Evil here. However had, this is not solely confind to biometric data only - this is about selling data to outside agencies, so the EU betrays EU citizens here.
You don’t get fingerprints collected on departure, just on arrival. Unless you go through automated gates maybe?
Not my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer.<p>US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.
wrong
> in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.<p>You absolutely don't. If you've done it once on your passport/ID you don't need to do it again. And infact there are fast track autonomous lanes that you can just scan your EU passport with biometric chip and fly through. (In theory, there's always idiots who don't realise they don't have it)
People without EU citizenship also enter EU.<p>Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
> Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster<p>How ?<p>> People do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country.<p>If the data hasn't had time to propagate then it's just a flag that you need to do it.<p>> In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.<p>Yes, if I arrive in Firenze airport there is maybe 2 people working on the border, if I'm in the Schengen, I don't even need to be checked. I'm not sure what you're talking about.<p>> People without EU citizenship also enter EU.<p>Clearly I'm not talking about these cases. You're not from the EU, you need to follow the rules. Sorry.
I just visited Italy. We absolutely passed through biometric scans on arrival and departure from FCO (US passports, vacation so no paper visa).<p>And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).<p>All of this was expected. The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg. We just walked from the arrival gate to the departure gate and that was that.
> And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).<p>Pre clearance from the US means nothing for Ireland, it's also not Schengen.<p>> The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg.<p>Because you've done it on your outbound. Ireland is also a bit more relaxed, but at the same time they can randomely ask you for your papers.<p>> from the arrival gate to the departure gate<p>If you don't pass the control, if I'm not wrong you'll never need to be rechecked. The only place it has happened to me within EU was between Ireland -> Germany -> Greece. Probably because Ireland isn't Schengen
Ireland is not in Schengen, so you were doing an international-to-international transfer. You normally don't have to go through immigration and customs for those, unless there are specific legal requirements or the airport is poorly organized.
Sure, but we went down the same hallway as everybody who was stopping in Ireland. There was just a sign at passport check with an arrow that said go on by. If I had wanted to stay in Ireland, I could’ve just walked out of the airport.
Dublin is amazingly chill with passport/visa/immigration.<p>I once needed an actual stamp in my passport, and the agent literally apologized to me for taking up the space. I thought she might be messing with me, but not, entirely serious.
With the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time.<p>Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.
We used the EES system in Italy, I think (cattle gates with passport scan and photo). The line was still pretty long and slow. Mostly because people couldn’t figure out how to get their passport scanned properly or they weren’t looking at the camera or any number of other things that there were signs explaining what to do and people just couldn’t be bothered doing it correctly
I wish it was 20-30 minutes. Try 2-3 hours.
If the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?
It's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.
Which you don't need to do, because the fingerprints are in the passport (cryptographically secure so only an authorized reader can access them, and only when able to OCR the inside of the passport). They're signed by your issuing government, so they're much harder to forge than the physical document.
The fingerprints in the passport can't do that?
Most countries' passports don't include fingerprint data. The US passport application process is entirely digital/by mail, for example, with no fingerprinting at all.
EU passports do.
Not those issued in Denmark or Ireland, apparently [1], though I see other sources saying Denmark does fingerprint now. Most countries don't fingerprint children.<p>[1]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Union#Common_design_features" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Unio...</a>
new ones yes but mine is still valid for the next 2.5 years and doesn't.<p>When passports are valid for 10 years there is always a bit of inertia.
How do they manage that? Do you have to visit a government office to get a passport? I only have a UK passport and it definitely does not include my finger prints as it was obtained by post.
Yes.<p>In fact, you have to do it twice; once to apply and once to receive it.<p>In Poland at least, the queues are often a few weeks long, and you have to book online in advance. If it's summer season and you need to travel soon, you usually have to go to some office in Buttfuckville at the other end of the country to get a reasonable date. Passport office hunting is an established practice for people who need one ASAP.<p>If you're a kid, both of your parents need to be present with you at the appointment <i>at the same time</i>, so they have to coordinate time off work. The fun begins if they're divorced and one lives in a different country.<p>At least, unlike in the UK/US, the process itself is pretty painless. I got mine just after I turned 18 (see above), and all I really needed to do was to go there, bring my ID, fill a single form and give them the fingerprints.
The process in the US is you open an online form, type in your details, and upload a JPEG of your face! Then you receive a passport in the mail a few weeks later! I would say that is a lot less painful than the Polish process.
The average US border official is a (angry) moron (with a badge and a gun). They've literally fingerprinted me on entry <i>with a US passport</i> because they were too stupid to figure out US citizens don't have to do that. I have been interrogated by CBP to ask if I "work in the country" despite being a citizen. Anything that changes the process from the simplest one-size-fits all will be fucked up, they cannot differentiate the process between foreigner and citizen let alone EU vs some other place.<p>Edit: Every time I share my border stories I get accused of lying or having done something wrong. I have much <i>much</i> crazier ones. No one believes it until it happens to them. Count yourself lucky if you've never been strip searched or imprisoned by these psychopaths, any belief they are reasonable are formed because you were lucky and have a naïve sort of optimism that if you do everything right it won't happen to you.
The average US border official is just like the average official(and non-official) anywhere; mostly bored, waiting for their workday to be over so they can go home and do the things that they actually enjoy.<p>Not to say they don't make mistakes or don't fully read/understand their systems. A co-worker was former LEO, had his id stolen at that time. We were traveling back from an a vendor site across the border, the border agent misunderstood the system alert from "double check this guys docs to make sure he is who he says he is" to "Anyone using this id is traveling under a false name!" So he got held and questioned, called his former supervisor, CPB supervisor came and showed him how to get a travel redress number.<p>Amusingly, since we were traveling together, I got his luggage off the carousel and kept it with me as I watched them question him. After some time they decided to look at his bags and came looking for them, I told them I had them and he was with me. They took the bags and didn't even want to speak with me.
>The average US border official is just like the average official(and non-official) anywhere;<p>False. CBP is well known as bottom rung in terms of hiring of federal LEO and an employer of last resorts. For example, one of the most prestigious is the Marshals Service, and for instance HSI is typically far closer to "average" or above than CBP is. If you're dealing with something like a DEA or FBI agent that is roughly 'average' and CBP you are roughly dealing with the 'moron' end and roughly the professional and intelligence opposite of the Marshals.
> because they were too stupid to figure out US citizens don't have to do that<p>This seems extremely unlikely to me. Did you stand in the noncitizens line by mistake?
<a href="https://content.imageresizer.com/images/memes/Family-Guy-Skin-Colour-meme-9.jpg" rel="nofollow">https://content.imageresizer.com/images/memes/Family-Guy-Ski...</a>
I’m a minority who, despite visually fitting the stereotype of a plane hijacker, have found our passport control people to be nothing but professional and courteous. The overall system seems to be pretty efficient about moving people through, despite the airports I’m going through being out of date and not set up for the volumes of traffic they get.<p>This is a marked contrast to the rest of our immigration, border patrol, and airline security people who are lazy and needlessly aggro as a rule.<p>But if you asked me to trade the passport check experience of entering the US with the experiences I’ve had trying to get into France or Germany I’d pick the US hands down. Especially Frankfurt. WTF are they doing over there?
The issue with stories like yours is that they don't really tell us anything. The incidence of racial profiling is low enough that some people, such as yourself, will never have a problem, ever. But that doesn't mean there aren't problems, and that they don't crop up often enough to be something we should be really uncomfortable with letting happen.
In my experience, the airports could handle the passenger volume, but they lack the people. I've entered the US 25–30 times, and almost every time, there have been long lines and empty immigration counters.
There's no fingerprints in the passport.<p>Edit apparently some but not all EU passports do, which is weird.
Which EU passports don't (other than below some age, lack of fingers etc.)? For a while some older ones might not have, but not sure if the expiry would still be long enough?<p>Edit: seems like Ireland is the odd one out (Danemark could, but seems to fingerprint).
Some countries in the EU only issue biometric passports only. And they have your fingerprints in them.<p>Others I imagine issue both types of passports and that's why some people are fingerprinted more often.
I would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?
Also think espionage/intelligence - those passports won't be forgeries (as they will gov issued), but there will be people travelling around the world with multiple "identities" shall we say, and this is going to make all that much harder.
Is there a high incidence of forgeries?
Probably not high, but forgeries are the people of most concern. Most people are honest travelers (either on business or vacation), and will go back home. Most people only commit crimes of the type "I didn't know this thing was illegal here: it is legal and common back home" - and the agent who catches it responds "I find a bunch of you every day who didn't know that - just put it in the destroy bucket and have fun" (technically they can arrest you for trying to bring something illegal in, but they know this is an honest mistake that isn't worth doing anything more about)<p>The forgeries are rare, but they are also the people customs cares most about. Those people who are planning to commit a serious crime of some sort.
It's not forgery so much as people using the same passport. People look similar.
To reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.
> <i>in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport")</i><p>I’ve entered the US something like 150 times over 20 years. Visa free (ESTA) and on a B1 tourist visa.<p>I’ve been fingerprinted and photographed every single time.
With the major distinction being that a lot of Europeans have absolutely no intention of ever visiting the United States, a country with a history of sometimes more, sometimes less hostility and aggressive intelligence agencies.<p>If you want to visit a hellhole, go through the hassle. But don't hand out all of our data just because you want to do joyrides.
>As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now.<p>Does this also apply if you arrive by dinghy?
Flew into CDG two days ago. US citizens. Passport control did not take fingerprints from any of us.
I’m just annoyed at all the visa-free claims while they charge you and you need a pre-approval anyway.
> one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.<p>Standard practice everywhere in Asia.
[dead]
You missed the third option: don't go to the US.
You missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship
... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.
Obligatory reference to "Remain Indoors" sketch:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE</a>
What if home <i>is</i> one of those places? :panic:
There's a third option - Not going to the US. It is my preferred option.
Does the EU really collect that, or only sometimes? I know the EU reserves the right to collect all that, but do they in practice?<p>I haven't been to the EU in a decade, but last time I was there I was standing in the customs line for non-EU residents and someone official saw my US passport in hand and directed me to the much shorter/faster EU citizens line. I walked right through customs without being checked at all.
The last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.
Its changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES)<p>I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs.<p>I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.
Yes they have biometric collection stations now.
10 years ago I walked right past the French immigration officer by accident because I didn't know where I was going. He yelled at me to get back in line, quickly stamped my passport and then shooed my along. EU has become a lot more like the US. I'd probably been detained if I had done that in the US. Last year visiting Switzerland they had these machines that auto adjust a camera to your height and there was no way you were going past the barriers by accident so you are getting your photo taken.<p>Things have changed in the last 10 years. I recalled from 2016, while some countries like Sweden were super strict about entry/departure (lady manually counted number of days on passport) others had been so lax it was comical: France would take one quick glance at you and stamp the passport, Ireland would at least test if you could answer a simple question with the stamp already pre positioned on the passport upon answering said question.<p>I presume this electronic system finally accounts for all of these differences and provides a minimum standard for exit/entry. Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry. Frankly with how lousy US exit/entry seems for foreigners, I don't mind the EU wanting to maintain strict standards for visitors to their borders as well. I wouldn't even mind them being extra rough on us Americans. Its totally understandable. Preferably take all the US diplomat passports to a back room as well while they are at it.
About the same time ago I walked out of the airport in Tel Aviv and a military guy with an assault rifle asked to see my passport. This was after having gone through passport and customs checks inside of course. :)
> Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry.<p>Yes. Because the primary issue is it was too easy to fly under the radar once you were in the Schengen zone.<p>Also in 2026 there are security threats which means tighter borders is a necessity.<p>Clearly in 2026, the easiest way to achieve compliance at all Schengen borders accross 29 countries is to digitise it, including biometrics.<p>Yes, to put it politely, there have been "teething issues" in its implementation. But given the sheer scale of the change, that is only to be expected. I think any of us working in tech would agree that it would be delusional to think such a thing would be perfect from day zero.
The EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from <i>Iraq</i> and customs was <i>not even there</i>, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.
I'm not sure the customs official knows where you came from (unless they explicitly ask, of course), because in my experience normally you get off the airplane and join a common queue. I think your passport counts a lot more when it comes to how strict the scrutiny is going to be. I'm assuming you're American, if you had an Iraqi passport, maybe you would have to answer a few more questions.
Not the EU, but I once accidentally entered Switzerland in the Zürich airport. The passport counter was unmanned and the doorway next to it was open, so I assumed there is another checkpoint somewhere further.<p>When a guy started chasing after me 30 seconds later I realized my assumption was wrong. But there really wasn't a way to know.
It's not clear to me if this would allow access to <i>all</i> biometric data, or "just" to that of people crossing the US border?<p>And for the latter, what data are we talking about? If it's mostly fingerprints, don't those already get collected upon crossing the border? And can't they already be read from a passport's chip?
I guess the US can freely request data on any citizen. The home countries don't know if you are actually traveling into the US. Direct flights are not the only option to reach the US.
It's just for people crossing the border, and yeah it's mostly fingerprints. The point is mainly to detect fraudulent passports, and the rest of the data is self explanatory (the US obviously is interested in people visiting that EU agencies have flagged for being potential terrorists).
If it lets the US use that identity to query European databases and retrieve associated information, that is a much larger change
Supposedly it will be only requested for people crossing into the US. But it's not 2012 anymore and we all know better.
This is a good thing for travellers.<p>In border security there are generally two camps, one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks, and generally makes travelling easy for the average person, and the other is like traditional cops using traditional tactics… the kind that will miss the person smuggling a kilogram of cocaine in their suitcase but will go after the old man who didn’t declare a pair of socks he bought on a trip. They generally make travel awful.<p>Support the intelligence-driven side of border security and reject the traditional cop camp.
The same can be said about Flock, or other surveillance state mechanisms.<p>It's good for security, it's more convenient than police doing police work.<p>Until it's not. Until it's hacked or abused as powerful mechanisms commonly are.
There's some level of difference to be fair<p>Hacking is a concern in both but the bigger issue is potential for abuse of power.<p>In the case of border checks the target is by necessity someone that isn't a citizen. This means that:<p>1. We generally afford them less safeguards than citizens so it creates less precedent (both legal and in terms of overton window)<p>2. The potential for abuse is ultimately less because a traveler on a short term visa is unlikely to still be in the country / unable to leave if a hostile government comes to power and intends to abuse the data<p>Also fingerprints and a picture are significantly less invasive than pervasive video surveillance in public spaces
Some amount of surveillance leads to a better society. See SG.
Flock is needed for current USA. That's why idiots are up against it.
Flock is run by incompetants. Their systems are comically insecure and access is easily abused. And the amount of surveillance data they routinely collect is not small. There needed to be a lot more discuss of who is doing the surveillance, how, and why before this was foisted on the public.
I want to agree with this. My fear is that governments and corporations love using technology to launder evil shit. Once security is automated, entire groups of people can be quickly and effortlessly disenfranchised by flipping a bool on a server somewhere. No appeal, no recourse, no human faces. You get to find out from some LLM that you aren't allowed in the country anymore because the "algorithm" identitifed you as a risk. uwu so sawd<p>It only works if the "intellence-driven security" is being developed in good faith.
> one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks<p>History shows that the main question with government and data collection is not "what X makes life easier for citizens" but "who collects/uses X and for what purpose". In the happy case, this may be all well and peachy. The case people rightfully worry about is not that case.
> In border security there are generally two camps<p>Well, there is a third camp. Israeli-style bio-social profiling of 100% of travelers.<p>That <i>really</i> makes travel awful !
Hey that’s not what “intelligence” means. What you’re arguing for is data-driven automation, taking the human out of the loop. You’re describing “computer says no” level border control, with Google-level human support (ie none) and somehow spinning that as better than real human cops doing what they do best.<p>Maybe this resonates in the American case where cops are notoriously undertrained and over-violent, but I gotta say it sounds extremely dystopian to me. All-power computerized control isn’t “intelligence”.<p>It’s also a false dichotomy. You can have lots of automation <i>with</i> humans in the loop. Humans can use automation to be faster and this is common.
I fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.
They're identical but countries pretend they're different. I got an evisa when I went to Indonesia and India. For each country, the process involved uploading a picture, filling in some basic details, and paying a fee. I was approved in 30 seconds for each. I'm pretty sure it was automatic.<p>ESTA is supposed to be a lower hurdle than a visa. But from what I've heard, approvals take longer and quite a few people get rejected.<p>Countries like to pretend they're still visa free, but honestly, it's just a pain in the ass and I'd rather they call it a visa. It's very, very easy to book a plane to a country, see all info indicating its visa free and you can just go, then right as you're about to head out, you decide to check for the 50th time just to be sure... and it turns out there's some "visa free process" for your country called EDtdjvubHHVJVF or some other random assortment of letters that involves a 2 hour application process and 24-72 hours (business days only) for approval results to come in. A visa would be preferable because it's more transparent.
You don't need to visit an embassy for ESTA, for a Visa this in-person interview at the embassy is required.
ESTAs used to be instant for me, but last time I got one (2023) it took 2 days<p>The US is particularly bad as you need an ESTA to transit. I had a friend nearly caught out by that on a flight from London to Lima which involved changing in Miami. When changing plane from an international to international flight in most countries you get off a plane, maybe go through security, and then get on another plane. In the US this isn't a thing. You have to immigrate into the country for 20 minutes.
It's to get around bilateral arrangements where counties have mutually agreed to not require visas (IE visa-on-arrival).<p>This allows doing visa type checks but not technically violating the agreement as it's not called a visa.
ESTA and visas are two different things:<p>- with ESTA, your country of origin is "trusted" and individuals in general undergo a lower level of scrutiny at a US port of entry.<p>- with a VISA, you country of origin is "not trusted" and individuals are granted the right to travel to the US after they undergo interviews at an US embassy and get approved.<p>Neither is a right to enter the US. Just a right to be transported by air/ship to a US port of entry. If the CBP lets you in it is a different story.<p>This is the US version. Other countries have their own rules.
If you try actually filling out DS-160 and going through the rest of the process the difference will become really clear.
Yeah is a far cry from other countries where you can just show up and maybe fill out an A5 form on arrival.
The distinction still matters legally and administratively
The amount of data you need to provide for ESTA and a B1/B2 US Visa is not remotely comparable - the visa process has way more steps and requirements.
But then some countries have visas on arrival that are less of a hassle than ESTA.
That's about to change, they are about to introduce a change that will require bios of all relatives, all social media accounts, email addresses, etc. Haven't looked at a US visa recently but it seems as invasive.
Depends on the visa.<p>A-1 and A-2 for example require almost nothing beyond a photograph, and a letter saying you’re travelling on behalf of your government.
So it's a "lightweight" visa.<p>The information you need to provide as an Iranian after a P1 visa is not remotely comparable to a British citizen after a B1 visa either.
"you" being the operative word. The rest of the information will just be supplied by your government instead of yourself.
To apply for a visa, even a B1 visa, you have to go to a consulate and show them proof of your bank account, property you own, family details, your job and such things (supposedly to show that you are tied to your home company and not secretly trying to immigrate to the US).<p>Governments don't even have all this information about their own citizens reliably even if they wanted to hand it over.
All it means that you do not have to go to the embassy and stand in line
A visa allows you entry, an ESTA doesn't allow you entry but just says you're allowed to travel to the border to see if you'll be allowed entry or not.<p>It's more for the airline than for you. If you have an ESTA and get refused entry, the airline isn't fined for bringing someone unauthorized to the border.
<a href="https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visitor.html" rel="nofollow">https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...</a><p>It states regarding a visa:
"A visa allows a foreign citizen to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry (generally an airport) and request permission to enter the United States. A visa does not guarantee entry into the United States.<p>The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials at the port-of-entry have authority to permit or deny admission to the United States. "
> A visa allows you entry<p>That's incorrect, holding a B1/B2 US visa only allows you to arrive at the port of entry, the actual permission to enter the country is always left to the border officer interviewing you
> A visa allows you entry<p>Nope<p>It's the same deal as you mention above
It shouldn't be possible for the US to request this data without the passport being physically present at a US entry facility (border, airport checkin scan, consulate) where fingerprints/photos are actually compared.<p>Before that point, only passport information tuples should be queryable, i.e., "Is {passport number, name, dob, pob, issue date, expiry} valid?".<p>We should remember that the current (and likely future) administration is actively hostile to transgender and intersex people, and persecutes US citizens with changed gender identifiers. Discrimination based on ethnicity is only one Overton-lurch away.
What a stupid, hysterical claim. This "sensitive data" is just what's on your passport, fingerprints, criminal history, and terrorism flags (from European agencies), only for people crossing the border. I don't see how you could defend not sharing any of that.
...uhm
You are happy to share your home address and everything else to securely identify you to a government acting increasingly erratic?
Because I am not.
I would be happy if terrorism-flagged people are shared across borders, but not everyone.<p>Remember once the dataset is there, it is not ever going to go away, regardless of who is in power
Your home address is required for a US visa and for many other countries visas around the world. This is not a recent thing.
If you don't want the US to have your date of birth, photo, fingerprints, etc then don't go to the US. It's that easy.
Also don't have a Facebook account, don't shop with Amazon, don't use an Android or Apple phone, don't work for a company that uses Office365. Sounds real easy doesn't it?
Most of those don't require fingerprints or photos. Those that require addresses, do so because they're literally billing and/or shipping items to you. And none of them is comparable to physically entering another country.<p>I, a US citizen, got fingerprinted by passport control in Austria 2 weeks ago, and they took a picture of my face and asked for personal details. That's pretty much how passport control works universally in any developed country, only the "how they get the information" changes. Sometimes they already have it and sometimes they ask for it.
Bah. Stop fearmongering. All of your lists are choices. You could chose not to. But you don't because it's convenient.<p>Amazon shopping doesn't need a photo or fingerprints or date of birth.
You share your thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes on American sites like this one. Possibly also have a YouTube account you've actively used daily for years. You don't seem to have a problem with that, why? I would argue the totality of your activity on American sites would be much more revealing about you than your fingerprints and home address.
Was Global Entry in the US a tactic to trick us into giving up our biometric data for speedy re-entry? I can say it's now barely faster than waiting behind the line for the stamper officials in their booths.
This is exactly what the EU does for foreigners entering
I do not agree and do not consent to give away my biometric data. With which authority is this happening? Some are about to loose their job.
What a surprise, I heard nobody wants to travel to the US anyways. EU leaders seem to be making concessions for pretty much nothing. USA first needs to make the country desirable to visit before discussing ways to make it easier to come into the country -__-
As an aside, I always find it amusing that as a British person that have visited both the US and the Schengen area since the new entry/exit system. Both the US and EU have taken my biometric information (i.e fingerprints) but the UK government has not.
This is not something I have a real issue with. Most of my privacy concerns are with my own government (the USA, Flock, various TLAs have unfettered communications access in violation of the 4th amendment, etc). I think the exchange of information should be mutual though. I don't care if they want to check me out before I enter their country, seems like a basic step. However, that info should not be shared until one gets a ticket/visa to said foreign country.
Under the assumption that this framework is somewhat sane and only shares biometric data of those people who actually request an ESTA, I don't see the issue.<p>This data already leaks whenever you travel legally to the US, because they take it from you as a requirement of entry. All this does is let them check the data they take on entry against the provided data. Which seems fair. The fact this data is already in passports is a very different matter, but that is something the EU has done voluntarily.
> those people who actually request an ESTA<p>I order to know who actually requested it, information needs to be shared that previously was not.
(I can think of technical schemes to limit this to less scary recipients and data, but however you do it, some necessary side-effect remains: Citizens of the EU who do not make such request cannot remain entirely unaffected.)
The future is bleak.
Last time I purchased a new passport my fingerprints got scanned and sent to a French private company. Not sure if this is worse or not.
dirty -scus. saw this christian make mabies with those things
As a European these texts are always a bit embarrassing. The evil USA that abuses our data...<p>No, European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.<p>You don't need the evil USA to reject biometric data gathering by government. You just need to get your largest boot and point it at the arse of the next public official that is responsible for YOU. Not some imaginary enemy behind a bit of water ffs... <i>rant off</i><p>The mistake isn't some agreement with the USA, the problem is that this data might be available in the first place. And yes, this is a case where government/EU is NOT able to safeguard it.<p>Other than that the text is correct and then we should just need to deal with the realities of needing visas again.<p>> EDRi recommends the Commission and the Council to push back against the US government’s blackmail and refuse to sell people’s personal data<p>There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Especially if said officials have zero problems with this kind of surveillance. They just have to pretend that they do.
> European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.<p>This is kind of besides the point though right. If you think EU nations already have serious issues why would you then <i>also</i> export personal data to <i>another</i> nation that has those same issues and worse?
There is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data
> have no say over what they are doing with your data<p>It seems like you already have no say over what they're doing with your data, and they're selling it to the US.
Yes there is a difference: For the average no name individual, the local authorities are a much bigger threat.
The data in the hands of officials in your jurisdiction is far more relevant than the other way around and there is little control about the data for domestic usage.
>There is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data<p>On the flip side foreign entities mostly won't ruin your life over petty deviance or find a way to predate upon you like local ones will because the foreign institution cannot project violence into your jurisdiction cheaply and without opposition the way the local one can. If I could choose who got access to the exclusion of the other it would be the foreign power every single time.<p>I know this wasn't what you were getting at but it's worth looking at the other side of the coin too seeing as voting barely grants us any power over how local entities use our data.
in the EU you have no way to vote for things to change either
The EU Council is made up of delegates elected from member states. The EU Parliament is directly elected.<p>Just because countries keep electing people with variations of the same policies doesn't make it unelected.
Of course we do. Is it easy? No, because no party runs on it. Just like it’s not easy for Americans to vote to change either.
Yes you do. I elected my European member of parliament, and I elected my EU councillor. The elected EU councillors select the commissioner, a bureaucrat, and the elected parliament can block anything the commission puts to a vote. That’s two elected offices, and one bureaucrat that’s appointed, but can’t act without consent of the elected officer. Just like many other democracies around the world. It’s democracy, just with some responsibility delegated to bureaucrats, who can still be overridden or removed by elected representatives. What’s so hard for you to understand about that?
It's ok to be angry, but this is just wrong.
> There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed.<p>Isn't there upside to the US too if more Europeans visit the US?
If you're really planning on kicking some official's ass, you'd better do it quick before your feet are shackled.
Everyone needs an enemy to cope with their own flaws.
I assume this works both ways? And USA is in return 'about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel' too
Why isn't screening tech globalized on a planetary level? Shouldn't someone like INTERPOL take care of that?
No chance the world powers (US, China, France, UK, etc.) will allow something like that unless they are the one who create and enforce it. It's basically the first line of defense for homeland security: don't let terrorists into your country.
I doubt the US would ever outsource something like this (border security) to an international organization like INTERPOL. It uses INTERPOL to track down and catch wanted people abroad, but that's it.
What do you think is stopping the US? It could be privacy but I don't think that would hold up in the public court as the US is way worse than EU when it comes to privacy regulations... what else? Control?<p>And we're not talking about "border security" in its entirety, just the screening/identifying part.
Democracy at work. Can we have a referendum on this? Or dirty peasants don’t get a say in this?
Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU and don't even benefit from visa-free travel to the US.
EU selling out to the US, a shocker!
Alarmism doesn't help anyone.
So let me get this straight:<p>- Currently travelers to the US need to give biometric data each time they enter<p>- New DB connection between EU and US for this purpose<p>- People will _still_ need to give biometric data each time they enter in order to validate that they carry valid information<p>Further more, they claim that _the US_ will only request data from travelers. But, my country doesn't know if I travel and where. So the supposed privacy guarantees are empty claims.
It's not 2012 anymore. Everyone knows better, as soon as they get access to that DB, they will start working on scraping all data from it.<p>There is 0 upsides to this.
The EU is not a serious institution, it's run by tasteless fraudsters<p>0 vision for the future<p>I could use much stronger words, but it's not worth it<p>How can you rally talents and visionaries when rulers are acting like that<p>Such a waste
Actually a plot point in Charles Stross' Empire Games trilogy from memory.
Sell? Is US paying for it?
Am I the only person increasingly paranoid about the inevitability of having to give my fingerprints to the government? Once they're out there you can't exactly change them and in the future i'm sure imaging technology will become significantly advanced enough that a portable device could be made that identify everyone who touched a scanned surface. Maybe it's just a phobia I've had since I was super young but fingerprints feel like a really sensitive piece of biometrics to give up. I live in the US and have traveled to europe a few times but have never been fingerprinted as far as I'm aware.
Finally.
These are the people that support "Decolourizing digital rights" (whatever that means).<p>Sounds like they also don't believe in borders or immigration enforcement, etc<p>I can't take them seriously
Biometric database thats supposed to not exist at all in the first place? Interesting.
On "selling out" claims. Yet again people not reading the article and trying to misrepresent who was the driving force:<p>> In 2022, the US government announced that it would require access to biometric databases of countries if they wish to keep visa exemption for their citizens travelling to the US<p>Big bad eu !!11!?!
This kind of reveals that the EU is undermined by lobbyists. The
real actions are too obvious - this is an act of betrayal by
EU "politicians".<p>Then again this is not uncommon either:<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_the_European_Parliament" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_th...</a><p>At the least the orange king does not hide his attempt to pillage as much money as possible while refusing to explain who all visited the sexy Epstein islands. I have a ... slight suspicion some billionaires not known yet have also partied with underage girls there.
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»It is on this basis that EU countries would then adopt their own bilateral EBSP agreements directly with the US (or adapt their existing arrangements).«<p>So nobody has sold anybody out yet. The solution is to never visit the USA.
>The solution is to never visit the USA.<p>The negotiation is only necessitated by the insistence on making travel <i>not</i> a prerequisite for potential harm. The US requests to query information beyond the validity of documents they can prove to have been physically presented to US officers.
You seem to have forgotten the first part of the "solution": be an EU citizen.<p>For those who are neither US nor EU citizens, both immigration systems are a hassle, and in my experience the EU's is sadly a worse one.
Borders are generally insane. But they are especially rich coming from countries, like the US or many European countries that got most of their wealth from pillaging other territories.<p>Walls and steel doors are bad enough but it's a good thing we're not birds, or else the world would be covered with wire mesh.