The interesting part is not really the existence of a machine identifier. Almost every modern OS has some equivalent. The bigger question is the boundary: which components can access it, and when does a local identifier become a remote tracking identifier? A machine-id sitting on disk is very different from an OS vendor correlating it with network activity.
This is the part that isn't clear and is by far the most interesting. At what stage and what point did the GDID get correlated with a tool/web request. As is it almost sounds like Microsoft "telemetry" gathers everything and they did a bulk search for certain activity, pulling the GDID and correlating it with a user.
From reading the official criminal complaint [1] it looks like Microsoft literally logs all web requests along with the GDID and sends it over as "telemetry". It basically associates the URL, the client's IP, and the GDID together.<p>Or I suppose it's possible that it only sends the domain and not the full URL, but that's enough for the police to go to the hoster and demand logs containing the full URL for said IP.<p>1. <a href="https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/media/1450651/dl?inline" rel="nofollow">https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/media/1450651/dl?inline</a>
Good question. My understand is that it was licensing:<p>Hackers cloaked IP address -> VPN license -> Windows GDID -> Hacker's name.
From the reading of the document, I really don't think that's it. They using phishing to get access to one company's servers, then used those servers to push software to other servers.<p>It 100% reads that they enlisted Microsoft to correlate telemetry data with some known activities, backtracking from that. Barring specific additional data, this should be extraordinarily concerning.
Well they can’t use that to track users of Linux.<p>I was a big fan of Microsoft ten to fifteen years ago. I’ve since transitioned my whole family off Microsoft products now over to Linux, Apple, and proton. Edit: and Brave.<p>I really thought their corporate culture would’ve changed after the late 90’s but I guess this is a good lesson for founders. The culture you build into your company will likely outlast your tenure.
Both systemd and dbus have a similar device id for Linux, which e.g. Chrome reads at startup:<p><a href="https://manpages.debian.org/trixie/systemd/machine-id.5.en.html" rel="nofollow">https://manpages.debian.org/trixie/systemd/machine-id.5.en.h...</a><p><a href="https://manpages.debian.org/trixie/dbus-bin/dbus-uuidgen.1.en.html" rel="nofollow">https://manpages.debian.org/trixie/dbus-bin/dbus-uuidgen.1.e...</a>
That's good to know, thank you. I'm been considering moving away from systemd, and certainly don't use Chrome.<p>The number of things you need to try to keep track of merely _improve_ your privacy is maddening. The whole world seems to be against you.
D-Bus is much harder to get rid of than systemd.<p>It’s best to focus your efforts into rotating these IDs.
firejail has a setting to generate a random machine id at every run.<p>And you should be running the browser inside firejail at all times.
I don't like the idea of a persistent id for my machine. Would there be any harm in rewriting the machine-id at every boot? Or just deleting it as part of the shutdown sequence?
Whatever you do there will <i>always</i> be uniquely identifiable information (if not an id, a fingerprint) on your machine.<p>If you want to escape that, you have to use dedicated privacy-enhancing tools / browsers, but even then, it's very likely that you can still be identified by motivated adversaries.<p>It doesn't mean you have to give up, but, if such id is necessary for technical reasons in systemd (I guess it is), I wouldn't worry too much.
> motivated adversaries.<p>This sounds like you're referring to state actors and intelligence agencies, but really this applies to the entire advertising/surveillance industry of people trying to sell you a new flavor of soda.
Sure, but the problem then is not systemd machineid, but rather the browser reading it and making it available for such identification (don't know if there is a browser out there doing that though).<p>Unless anonymization is provided by your browser, there is nothing you can do to prevent such identification technology run by these advertisers to build your profile, and send you targeted ads.
And petty criminals that set up fake fake websites to steal your money, ad-networks are also commonly used to spread malware so limiting the number of attack surfaces is the only sane thing to do.
When you go really hard with the privacy-enhancing tools, you can potentially just make yourself even more visible. When you're so far outside the normal way a user looks you're making yourself even more unique than if you had normal-ish looking identifiers.<p>It can take a lot of effort to make yourself truly just blend in and disappear.
The supported method to get a new one each boot is to truncate the file to 0 bytes and disable systemd-machine-id-commit.service<p>Double-check that this method actually works though.<p>Machine ID is used for things like dhcp leases, log rotation, etc. IPV6 addresses or transient MAC addresses are derived from it
dhcp uses it by default nowadays.. but you can tell dhcp to use your mac address instead (like it used to)..<p><a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1498611/ubuntu-dhcp-client-uses-ids-instead-of-mac-addresses-cant-change-this-behavior" rel="nofollow">https://askubuntu.com/questions/1498611/ubuntu-dhcp-client-u...</a> (linked because depending on version, there are several different ways to make this change..)
I went to check if Flatpak would protect against this but it seems although it's a wanted feature it's not so straightforward to implement: <a href="https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/4311" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/4311</a>
Wow, three pieces of software I don't use for other reasons, just gained a new reason to evangelize against them!
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.<p>I have the urge to grab a pitchfork, but I know better than to make assumptions about why that functionality was added. Time to do some homework I guess.
In dbus, it seems the feature is intended for two processes to know they can access the same shmem and other system resources. I'm struggling to understand in which circumstances would that be useful.
Creating an excuse for creating a machine-id to associate with network traffic. Sometimes, it is enough to have a plausible enough sounding reason to write down on paper, but you have to look at what something actually is. Any red blooded hacker knows there's what a tool is meant to be used for, and then there's what it can be used for. Less is more.
Sounds like chrome is the problem.
The utility of and presence of unique identifiers in software should be no surprise.<p>But if you are using <i>TelemetryOS</i> (i.e. you cannot fully switch off the chatter) and your daily Web browser doesn't offer privacy extensions, you are the product.
Trying to imagine a world where I use Chrome unironically.
But does browser send these id?
As an Hyperbola user both systemd and dbus are a no-no there.
Is this specific to Debian?
Nope, but Debian does use systemd by default so it's there.<p>I'm running Arch Linux and /etc/machine-id is present.<p>There's also an optional /etc/machine-info file that could exist. It's not a part of systemd and won't be created by default. It's more of an informal way to have details about the system in 1 spot. It was more popular when provisioning bare metal servers but still has value in the cloud. You can have key / value pairs on who to contact, where it's located, what type of machine it is, etc..
<a href="https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/machine-id.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/mach...</a><p><a href="https://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus-uuidgen.1.html" rel="nofollow">https://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus-uuidgen.1.html</a>
FreeBSD has it as well.
> this is a good lesson for founders. The culture you build into your company will likely outlast your tenure.<p>Good founders already know this. Bad ones don't care.
Aww you missed the Ballmer Years. Chalked full of "me too!"'s and broken promises. But he was right about one thing. Developers, developers, developers...
Well Enterprises can also enroll Linux machines in intune
I remember a long time ago intel tried introducing unique IDs for their processors. People got up in arms made a big stink and intel put its tail between its legs. Many years later, the industry through a thousand little cuts has that and more with merely a whimper because it’s not a single big boogey entity but it’s diluted across hundreds of thousands of developers who deployed a myriad ways to fingerprint their users…
To me this indicates that Microsoft has some sort of traffic analysis performed on endpoints, then linked to GDID. I'd guess this is part of Defender's real time protection or MAPS.<p>Fun fact, Microsoft Defender MAPS was previously named SpyNet.<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Protection_Service" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Protection_Se...</a><p>The GDID identifier seems software in nature though. They could be more aggressive and tie it to the baseboard's serial number the way some games do. Then the hardware is tracked throughout its entire lifecycle, not just per instance of Windows install.
I guess we’ll see a Windows tool that sets your identifier to this suspect’s “g:6755467234350028” very soon (weird ID, by the way. 16-digits makes sense, but I would have expected it to be hexadecimal)<p>Also, can anybody tell how “Microsoft had records showing that on May 12, 2025, at 19:21 UTC, the GDID associated with Stokes’ computer “accessed, among other ngrok pages, '<a href="https://dashboard[.]ngrok.com/signup" rel="nofollow">https://dashboard[.]ngrok.com/signup</a>,'” works?<p>If it’s the browser sending that info to Microsoft, wouldn’t somebody have noticed that their PC contacts Microsoft for every web page they open? Or do they batch that data and send it at some later time?<p>Also, would that mean this ‘only’ affects those using Microsoft’s browser (or does Chrome do the same, sending data to Google?)<p>Alternatively, is this happening lower in the stack? I can think of a place where a system component has access to the domain name, but not of one where it has the full URL.
> (weird ID, by the way. 16-digits makes sense, but I would have expected it to be hexadecimal)<p>it's the decimal representation of a 64 bit integer
A non-Edge browser would give the OS the domain name from the HTTPS connection and the page title because that's what it sets the window title to. I think that would be enough to identify the URL in a lot of cases (i.e. the sign-up URL sets the title to "ngrok Sign Up".
> Also, can anybody tell how “Microsoft had records showing that on May 12, 2025, at 19:21 UTC, the GDID associated with Stokes’ computer “accessed, among other ngrok pages, '<a href="https://dashboard[.]ngrok.com/signup" rel="nofollow">https://dashboard[.]ngrok.com/signup</a>,'” works?<p>That URL shows 16 blocked requests, it tries to load (at the very least) datadog and googletagmanager, I'm guessing the police simply reached out to all the analytics companies Ngrok ends up indirectly/directly sending data to, which ends up saving everything they get their hands on.<p>What surprises me the most is that the guy was using a Windows installation to do all of this. But then again, you only hear about the dumbest criminals who get caught, so I guess it does make sense after all.
Converting that ID to hex gives 18,000F,C8CB,93CC which rather looks like 32 bits of random data plus the prefix 0x18000f or possibly 40-48 bits of time in ms granularity from some epoch.
This goes a long way to prove that Microsoft does NOT care about your privacy, even if the header of their cookie consent claims so. They absolutely do not care, and this should be said about every big-tech vendor, not matter how lame it seems to say so. It is long overdue that we all say what needs to be said: they do not care about your privacy, your independence, or your well being. They DO NOT CARE.
So this kid uses his home computer at his home, and they trace him down with the IP address, and the IP address also makes a request for Windows Updates. And that narrows down the Device ID. The device id is now traced to this kid.<p>This is the kind of stuff privacy advocates have been raising the alarms about. This is the kind of capability that de facto erased all privacy assertions. And further led companies like Google to take advantage of this and erase assumptions of privacy all together.
Does this not violate European privacy laws?
Probably yes it does. Not that it matters when you hack a website to have some expensive jewelry sent to your home address.
So what if it does? They'll get hit with a fine that will be the equivalent of 6 hours of revenue as they continue to be bastards.
GDPR only covers PII, this is a randomly generated ID that changes on every install on the OS.<p>You can mix it with other info to track a user, but it's not enough to de-anonymize someone on its own.
If they associate it with a Microsoft account (or anything that is identifiable) then it becomes PII.<p>And of course they are.
unfortunately under GDPR, anonymous IDs are personal data as they are used to single out a data subject.
The most surprising part of this is a "hacker" using Windows ...
Vague article. No evidence that Microsoft can see what web pages you are visiting in Chrome or Firefox (for example).
From the reply you're replying to:<p>> 27. Microsoft records also indicate: <...> a little more than three hours after the ngrok account was created, the user visited “[Company F].com” from the .168 proxy server.
Or even Edge with these options turned off:<p>>Send optional diagnostic data to improve Microsoft products [Includes how you use the browser, websites you visit, and enhanced error reporting. Determined by your Windows diagnostic data setting]<p>>Allow Microsoft to save your browsing activity including history, usage, favourites, web content, and other browsing data to personalise and improve Microsoft Edge and Microsoft services like ads, search, shopping, news, and Copilot [Includes your history, usage, favourites, web content and other browsing data]
US Tech is fast becoming like Russia's and China's.
Have you heard of a website called facebook?
There was a time where the default assumption was functionality created tracking opportunities. Nowadays, it's more the opposite. Social media have always been on the forefront of monetizing data, but the same data in the hands of governments is used differently. My point is that the way you/we feel towards Facebook, the entire world is increasingly feeling about most, if not all, US tech.<p>I know people who won't use Israeli or Chinese-made tech for fears of sabotage. US tech is quickly making its brand in that market.
I know people who avoid US tech and happily use Chinese or Russian tech here in central Europe. Not trusting US tech isn't new, it just gets a lot worse
I actually opened a yandex mail account 15 years ago because, since I was going to be tracked, at least it would be from people who have no friendly contact with most gov entities and companies in my society.<p>Sad.
Israeli pagers are a blast.
It was originally called LifeLog and sponsored by the military as a data collection system to help them identify terrorists.
Why when Americans do something do we feel like we have to mention the Russians and the Chinese?<p>Maybe I'm just bad at PR, though. If we call this "Chinese" behavior, maybe it will appeal a particular demographic who would normally support it in order to protect them from "Black Crime."
Could this identification be through some alternate Windows service like Windows Update, Windows Time ntp server or Windows Defender?
Duplicate? <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48807767">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48807767</a>
My surprise level is at approximately... zero.
Next we will see some news, that MS was compelled to share that info with some three letters. - Oh wait, that is exactly what has already happened, according to the article.<p>MS is just like that person, who drives a dagger into your back.
Android has one too. If you don't link your google account to an app, they can use your device id as your profile.
Truly terrifying. But also shocking that a 'hacker' is using windows
I assume this likely true for nearly all device manufactures. I assume all devices have some kind of unique ID that they use for tracking, whether they said so or not.
[dupe] <i>Full Writeup of the Windows GDID</i><p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48811081">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48811081</a>
Probably a capability demanded through a TCN or TAN as part of a mechanism like Australias Access and Assistance bill.
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TLDR: Microsoft can (at least) correlate your Windows installation to all website domains you visit while using Windows.<p>It's unclear what the mechanism is, but I'd wager their "telemetry" is constantly revealing your installation ID, your current IP, and domains that were recently resolved.
The article links to this page, which was shared on HN yesterday. [1]<p>I feel like using wireshark to look at what's being sent back and forth from Windows telemetry, when using Edge, Chrome & etc should reveal what's being sent and recieved. Using MITM SSL spoofing should be able to intercept the packets.<p>[1] <a href="https://github.com/SmtimesIWndr/gdid-reversal" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SmtimesIWndr/gdid-reversal</a>
I was under the impression Windows is unreliable for these kind of activities as they are "leakish".<p>I imagine it's not too difficult to narrow down the potential suspects with how much data points you'd get from ISP, Windows telemetry, and whatever.
"all" would be troubling indeed. I hope that someone can discover the mechanism, and whether it's depending on any settings like "Share browsing data with other Windows features" or any other settings.
Worse than just domains as TFA shows full URLs are recorded.<p>Reminds me of Google Safebrowsing.
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