One comment really nails the problem with this sort of thing:<p>" People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is¹; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a beating from one of many "war heroes" that walk around the cities these days.<p>No, the government sector doesn't just make missiles and bombs, it also covers schools, hospitals, many other things."
And that's not even so bad compared to what would happen to somebody in occupied Ukraine: they would be sent to "the basement." That's the euphemism for the local torture chamber, outside of which they deposit the dead bodies of the tortured to let everybody in the area know what happens if they do something like speak Ukrainian.
Note that xsnow <i>already</i> displayed such flags randomly, and this just changes the probability.<p>So, if you're in a location where displaying the Ukraine flag will get you shot, 1) it was already not safe to run xsnow, and 2) much more importantly, I genuinely hope you can successfully escape your situation.
When the war started, Europeans were forcing famous Russians living in Europe to denounce their government's evils. For example an opera house demanded a Russian opera singer to say something against the regime or be "blacklisted".<p>As if it's so fucking easy to denounce a dictator who has murderous tendencies and who rules your homeland, as if it's so easy to insult him, and then what, not be able to return home and see your friends and family until that dictator is defeated?<p>I found those demands so unthinkingly heartless, it's responding to tyranny with your own tyranny...
> not be able to return home and see your friends and family until that dictator is defeated?<p>Assuming they're still alive.
I mean, it's easy to be apolitical and stay in russia. They can always do that and not break the russian social contract.<p>Молчание - знак согласия
Slackware-current upgraded xsnow to the latest version in June 20th but applied a patch from ALT Linux that removed the protestware bits just because of this reason. I support this.
They don’t have to use the software. It’s such a non issue. Xsnow is closer to art than critical software, you can easily ditch it
The naïveté of that position is that the users are not informed ahead of time that there's a random chance of a political protest popping up on their screen, so do not get to make an informed choice before it is perhaps too late. It's not mentioned in the doco. It's obfuscated in the source code as an 'extra tree' in an array of xpmtrees. The commit that added this had the commit message 'willem'.
Please, tell me, who is ever using xsnow in a place where that would be problematic? It’s such a niche software. Again, complete non-issue.
So 3% of the pop uses Linux. I shouldn't be surprised that 3% of those use Debian. I WOULD be surprised to find that more than 1 in 10k has EVER used xsnow 1 in 1M running it continually. Note this is actually wildly overstated. I have not even touched on the settings which would show flags.<p>Then we have to imagine they run xsnow all the time and somehow don't notice the dangerous political stuff OR run it for the first time.<p>If we start with 140M Russians this has certainly never happened and will almost certainly NEVER happen.<p>It is actually far more likely that someone should actually get caught using it trying to see the flags and have to explain that to their boss.
How many victims should something generate before considering removing it from Debian?<p>Funny thing how here we are talking about keeping it despite it can apparently cause people to die, while Debian was so quick to decide that the offensive fortunes that nobody had complained about for the past 23 years were incredibly harmful and had to be removed right away :D
That's also a good argument for completely removing rainbow flags from everything, in more countries than one. Will we see that happening?
Yeah, but is open source so if some of the extra rare "good Russians" do not like this super small chance of getting hurt then they diserve their regime, they will finally protest when the regime will affect their own lives but stay silent while other people get genocided.<p>I do not own any popular software to put anti Zed/Putin shit in it so sorry I can inconvinience those super rare good Russians.
I thought it would talk about the situation on the ground in Ukraine, but no...<p>Will anyone think of the poor Russians just trying to go on with their lives?<p>Do people in Russia realize how bad the situation is on the ground <i>for Ukrainians</i>?<p>>No, the government sector doesn't just make missiles and bombs, it also covers schools, hospitals, many other things.<p>Schools forming future soldiers, hospitals healing soldiers so that they can go back to the front...<p>The naivety here is astounding. The commenter, those who agree with him and all "normal" Russians would benefit to read Hannah Arendt:<p><a href="https://philosophybreak.com/articles/hannah-arendt-on-standing-up-to-the-banality-of-evil/" rel="nofollow">https://philosophybreak.com/articles/hannah-arendt-on-standi...</a><p>Cue the famous quote...<p><a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/" rel="nofollow">https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/</a>
This sounds like a you problem. Suppose you have software that shows famous faces and quotes as a screensaver would you make it by default not show anyone of color so it would be acceptable in rural Oklahoma or make it show no women so it would be acceptable in Iran?
In rural Oklahoma, it is entirely acceptable to have “anyone of colour” portrayed in something like a screensaver.<p>I don’t know much about Iran, but depictions of women seem common in advertising there.
Most women whom one would display inspirational quotes wouldn't be displayed in a head scarf as they would come from a range of cultures most of which don't have the same restrictions. I think that the point is that political moral and cultural norms aren't neutral and many are just morally deficient and free software shouldn't be in the business of pretending that Nazis and Jews are 2 different groups with equally valid rights not to be offended.<p>This is a corporate mindset we adopt because we want everyone's business not a useful or correct attitude for individuals who aren't the beneficiaries of the publics money in the first place.<p>The Russian aggression is evil, the Russian culture as a whole is abhorrent. We shouldn't be afraid to call it out and fight back. I would be ok if every Debian terminal printed a message raising donations for the defense of Ukraine.<p>Its free software so Russians worried about political correctness herein meaning defense of mass murder torture and genocide can run a fork which boots up to Russian military propaganda if they like.
Wouldn't that be.. acceptable, if not entirely the point? Raising awareness? Some rando getting arrested for a screensaver they didn't know contained a flag is pretty efficient propaganda and would likely turn at least the involved people and their inner circles? It might not be the point but I doubt they'd be disappointed
How is this an issue? Xsnow is a novelty. You have to make two decisions: the first to still be using Xorg at all, the second to install the application itself which is essentially a gag screensaver.<p>The idea that some govt employee would get fired for this is extremely far fetched.
I'm very sympathetic to Ukraine and the desire to demonstrate or speak out, but I don't see how this instance is very effective, and doing it has a significant cost to the integrity of Debian, as this argument says:<p>> <i>Russ Allbery agreed that the DFSG was not relevant; he also warned that citing the Social Contract and DFSG ""turns the conversation into rules lawyering without addressing the actual issue"". However, even though xsnow is DFSG-compliant, he did say that the flag display may be something Debian does not want in its archives:</i><p>> > <i>I would, in general, say that software that behaves in deceptive ways, which includes hidden behavior changes based on usernames, locales, or other local settings or information that no user would reasonably expect to change behavior in this way is probably not something that we want to have in Debian. It's a very slippery slope and also likely to create a lot of drama to very little benefit.</i>
It is interesting to read M. Allbery's comment side by side with the discussion here on Hacker News about a CLAUDE.EXE program with hidden behaviour that subtly changes the way that it outputs an information banner based upon timezones, hostnames, and domain names.<p>* <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48734373">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48734373</a><p>Further LWN commentary (as observed at <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518</a>) is that the result would not be solely drama but potentially some fairly nasty real world consequences for some people.
The simple solution that should make everyone happy is to simply document it. That way it is no longer a hidden behavior, and the Debian maintainer could even do that as a patch without the help of upstream.
That might be responding too narrowly to this objection.<p>Then there's the question of singling out some subset of Debian users based on their country, for different behavior they presumably don't want and that is against their individual interests (see the other comment, about displaying a flag getting you beaten).<p>The solution is to treat everyone fairly and honestly, and to set an example for how people can get along. Imagine Debian is an international space station: the astronauts will help each other, not bicker and backstab. There are other venues for conflicts.
The deceptive aspect is the stronger part of the objection. Banning any and all political messages in Debian packages would go too far and I doubt the community would support it. People and in extension developers, can be quite political active and will put some of that into their works. I am sure (as in I don't need to verify) that the pride flag is somewhere in Debian right now, in some package, and banning it would cause much more conflict than allowing it to remain where it is. The problem really only exist if people would have it shoved into their faces through deception.<p>An other example of political message is when projects redirect donations to a cause. Should projects be banned from having a "donate to Ukraine" somewhere in a program, maybe with a Ukraine flag next to it?
The maintainer and upstream are the same person
So, if someone were to modify a Debian package to show Palestinian flag for Hebrew speakers or Iranian flag for ...Enligsh speakers, the change won't be instantly reverted and the user won't be restricted, right?
I could not be less sympathetic on this. If you don't want people protesting your actions, don't, like, invade their country.<p>"But what if it was the US doing the invading?" Yes, even then. If some Iraqi author made an Xsnow that waved little Iraq flags, that's their right. Even if I disagree, it doesn't harm me, and it might inspire me to consider our actions.<p>"But what if it makes someone's boss get mad at them?" If my boss saw an Iraq flag on my screensaver, I'd say "huh, look at that! I guess that was added in the new version. I'll change it to another screensaver." And if you live in a country there the likely reaction is that your boss might execute you, <i>your government are the baddies</i>.
Isn't there discrepancy between that and The Debian Linux team <i>removing “offensive” quotes for the “fortune” application</i>[1]?<p>[1] <a href="https://x.com/LundukeJournal/status/1952340426892984580" rel="nofollow">https://x.com/LundukeJournal/status/1952340426892984580</a>
I think there is in fact a discrepancy between displaying flags and advocating directly for gendered violence:<p>> Debian contributor "NoisyCoil" said that they had wanted to argue in favor of keeping the packages, but after looking at the content they had decided against it:<p>> > I went peeking at the package and, unless I'm completely missing something, the second offensive Italian fortune says that women's "no"s should be interpreted as "yes", while the third one explicitly calls for violence on women [1]. Like, it literally says women should be beaten on a regular basis. I'm afraid I can't help you here, sorry.<p>from <a href="https://lwn.net/Articles/1031750/" rel="nofollow">https://lwn.net/Articles/1031750/</a>, linked in the fine article
> I think there is in fact a discrepancy between displaying flags and advocating directly for gendered violence<p>NosiyCoil forgot to mention that I removed hundreds of fortunes containing racist/sexist jokes from the regular section, installed by default to every Italian user and displayed by default.<p>I basically grew up reading them and 20 years later, I forked fortunes-it to get rid of them and put them in the offensive section. And then Cater unilaterally decided to remove it.<p>But neither NoisyCoil, nor Cater, not anyone else stepped up to actually read the fortunes that were not tagged as offensive and were being installed and displayed by default.<p>One year later, I'm still the only person doing this work.<p>Archlinux is still using the pre-fork version where this content is still present in the main section.<p>That article is very one sided. The author spoke to Cater but did not think of reaching out to me for comments.
Is there no project safe from these kinds of obnoxious neo-busybodies?
You'd have to ask the respective, different sets of people involved in each situation.
What is offensive on the Ukrainian flag?
> don't, like, invade their country<p>I did not invade any country<p>At least this app just displays the flags and not prints such accusations
Not everyone who speaks Russian is a Russian or lives in Russia. It's like show a Palestine flag specifically to users with a Jewish calendar.
Don’t you mean Iran, not Iraq? Or are you hoping Dick Cheney’s ghost will see the flag?
Argh, yes. Sorry, for most of my life we've been mad at Iraq and pals with Iran, or vice versa, and today I got that backward.
the problem isn't protesting someone's actions - it's supporting the other side<p>do you really want to support country that kidnaps its citizens off the streets and honorary reburied Nazi criminals?
That may be, but if I do in fact live in a place where my "government are the baddies," why does it follow that open software should punish me—for nothing more than happening to be alive within that jurisdiction—by provoking my "baddie" government to visit its badness upon me personally? For speech I wasn't even trying to make—for speech that you kind of put in my mouth without asking me?<p>It would be fine if you gave me a beautiful and whimsical way to <i>choose</i> to express my feelings, and I took it. But when you're disguising the flag in code as an "EXTRATREE," that signals to me that you're trying to slip through a surprise without my noticing:<p><pre><code> #ifdef USE_EXTRATREE
if (global.Language && !strcmp(global.Language,"ru") && drand48() < 0.3)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;
if (drand48() < 0.02)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;
#endif
</code></pre>
I think it's great that you live somewhere—and enjoy a relationship to your working environment—where you don't have to worry about that kind of thing! I wish more people got to enjoy those kinds of freedoms. I don't think the way to make that happen is to rub individual people's faces in the crappiness of their predicament.<p>I'm reminded of a situation I encountered some years ago where a person opened a web browser in front of a classroom—no porn in their history, nothing untoward, just going to a high-profile mainstream news site or something in service of a classroom discussion—and all the targeted ads were for things like HIV medicines and mainstream campaigns choosing ad variants that depicted gay couples.<p>Not the time or the place, that person didn't ask for it, and it led to deep consequences for them—from "outing" on one side, to accusations of "grooming that classroom full of students" and "probably being riddled with AIDS" on the other—that this good, responsible, kind, wise person did nothing to invite.<p>The targeters probably thought they were doing something righteous or even "accepting" by "making sexual minorities feel seen" or something—but by putting words in the person's mouth without their consent or agency, they caused great unnecessary harm to somebody who didn't deserve it.
To be explicitly clear, I have nothing to do with Xsnow. I don't even use it.<p>That out of the way, I can't and won't sanitize my words so that they're perfectly inoffensive all the world around. I've made comments over the years critical of a great many governments. If the fragile leadership of those countries saw my words on a screen there, perhaps they'd get angry at the person reading my writings. I do feel bad for that person and certainly didn't try to get them in trouble. But neither am I going to <i>not</i> criticize a government that's behaving poorly — even my own — for the sake of a hypothetical situation that may never even exist.
In that same file it also says<p><pre><code> # This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.</code></pre>
What exactly is the punishment in seeing a Ukrainian flag?
Looking at your comment history, it's odd how you feel this way about certain countries but not certain others.
Which countries have I not criticized for invading others? No, seriously, please let me know if I've missed some and I'll fix that immediately. I've certainly criticized my own country's misguided attacks on others who I don't think were a direct risk to us or our allies.
A lot of people talking about how displaying the flag at all could get somebody in Russia in trouble. You could see the increasing of the likelihood as helpful then, because the flag could always appear. By making it come up more often it communicates to the user that it <i>can</i> appear it gives a chance to the user to notice it in a "safe" situation and not use xsnow if they are in a situation where it could cause trouble for them. The existence of the flag is not quite mentioned at <a href="https://www.ratrabbit.nl/ratrabbit/xsnow/" rel="nofollow">https://www.ratrabbit.nl/ratrabbit/xsnow/</a>, and the site is loading too slow to see if it is shown in <a href="https://www.ratrabbit.nl/ratrabbit/xsnow/visuals/index.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.ratrabbit.nl/ratrabbit/xsnow/visuals/index.html</a>.
I haven't heard of this package personally and it's not on my desktops so it must not be pulled in by any of the task- desktop environment metapackages I use. So you probably have to go looking for it.<p>I really don't care about this package or protest but what might be more interesting to consider is what if this were in a default package and what if the affected locales were different?<p>If I make a list of all the countries who have recently been at war or are currently engaged in hostilities or have ethnic animus towards each other and just choose to taunt them all, that would really be a dick move and it's probably OK for Debian to drop the package. FWIW I'd rather see them adopt a kindhearted fork than override an author/ maintainer when possible.<p>If there's no special pleading for the ru/ua conflict then it's not too concerning.
I was not totally clear on this. The article makes it sound like the behavior is in the debian patches, and not upstream?<p>I believe upstream is here, and has the same code as quoted:<p><pre><code> https://sourceforge.net/p/xsnow/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/xsnow/src/scenery.c#l332
if (global.Language && !strcmp(global.Language,"ru") && drand48() < 0.3)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;</code></pre>
Most do not acknowledge the slippery slope exists until they are sliding down it about to hit bottom...
One of the comments that struck me on the lwn.net site is the (albeit small) possibility that someone in Russia could be running the software and unintentionally land themselves in hot water if someone discovers these images on their computer. I'm sure that's not the intended consequence, but I could be problematic.
So next time something like this slips through and it runs rm -rf /* ? Then what?<p>Shit like this erodes trust.
Has anyone confirmed who this 'Alexander Ivanov' person is or even if this is a real person and not some AI bot? I searched for the email address used and it only appears recently in these handful of posts about xsnow.
How is seeing more Ukrainian flags a discrimination?<p>Discrimination implies something harmful. Like invading neighbor country and perpetrating genocide. This complaint says more about Ivanov than anything else.
The imputed discriminatory part is that the software only shows the additional flags to users with Russian locale, not that it shows the flags at all.
Yah that's where I stand on it. The message isn't harmful or hateful, it dares only make a political statement.
It's still selective degradation of functionality, as presumably people who download a snowglobe animation program don't do it to see any sort of statement apart from normative depictions of wintery things. The problem would be the same if it showed Russian flags only to users with Ukrainian locale, or ads for Mountain Dew only when the user's locale is set to French, or even just something as impossible to interpret as <i>offensive</i> on its own as adding lots of little cactus men whenever the locale is Dutch.
right, which means the software is less useful and as such you might not want to use it. Plenty of software like that listed on repositories, which I think is fine.
> presumably<p>So it's "selective degradation of functionality" based entirely on your assumptions regarding the motivations of the users? How is this a useful description?
But also it is showing how russians think that Ukrainians existing is somehow discriminatory against them.
This point in the comments made me think twice:<p>> People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a beating from one of many "war heroes" that walk around the cities these days.<p>[EDIT: I see @krunck reposted this at the top level — <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518</a>]
Oh no! Imagine the horror of losing your job. It compares nothing to literal genocide their army perpetrating.<p>And yes, it is their, not their government, not some mysterious leaders. Russians reelected same government for 35 years with it invading neighbours pretty much every 5 years.
As a reminder, the most dangerous job in Russia is "opposition leader".
Imagine living in the occupied part and being sent to the basement for this. Probably not that black and white now... although seeing both activist and slacktivist types being very loud about the land but not the people over and over again, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you don't care.
Given the number of colonized people that speak Russian, including residents of Ukraine, Georgia, Uzbekistan, etc. etc. etc. I think this sort of Easter Egg based on language rather than geographical location is quite appropriate.<p>My family speaks both Ukrainian and Russian, and in Russian speaking spaces here in California we find many many many eager supporters of Ukraine's sovereignty, because when they hear Ukrainian spoken they tell us! And also tell us they wish they had been able to keep their non-Russian family language alive too. Most of these supporters are not from the Moscow or St. Petersburg areas though...
It's not even an anti-Russian statement!<p>I wouldn't get bent out of shape if Xsnow showed me a Canadian/Greenlandic flag in response to me using en-us.
Very much agreed. It‘s a statement by the authors of that software, and that is well within their rights.
How can anyone complain about Ukrainian flags, unless these people have a problem that the Ukraine exists.
I thought we all agreed that flags-as-political-statement in software were Certified Cringe after the one-click “add a French flag overlay to your Facebook profile photo” thing, <i>eleven years ago</i>?
Protestware as a whole has never worked to solve anything. Awareness of a particular issue is the only positive thing "protest" software has successfully tried, with the second order effect being better supply chain management.<p>I don't use Linux or Xsnow but it baffles me how distributions would allow something like this. Sure, it's just flags now, but if you look at faker and colors.js, you'll see the other side of the coin of what happens when you allow software like this.