Last time I suggested on a similar story that there's a disproportionate number of firms in Israel with an explicit focus on subversion, manipulation, spying and malware, seemingly because a large portion of the Israeli population gain a certain expertise in these fields as part of serving in the IDF and working to suppress Palestinians, I got accused of bias because apparently there's many more Israeli startups working on medical research, green technology and world peace.<p>If there are, they certainly would do no harm in being more vocal, firms like BlackCore is unfortunately what Israel is becoming known for around the world.
Regardless of what good things other Israeli companies might be doing, it's clear that the Israeli government doesn't have a problem with these malware / spyware companies.
They actively export it. See Pegasus
Israel has been a proud host of malware for decades: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley</a><p><i>Evidently</i>, scamming foreigners is completely in line with their national character.
Which government are you comparing to?
Any other small country?<p>You rarely read about Finland spying on other nations, or trying to influence their politics.<p>There is the AIPAC, I challenge you to find anything similar from any other country.
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I don’t know man, never heard about Finnish people decimating a population, starving kids, subverting countries, toppling governments... I’ve been in Finland last year and they’re so nice.
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> Must be nice to live in a country where your neighbors don't blame you for killing Jesus and want to exterminate you.<p>Says a country that's been credibly accused of trying to exterminate its neighbors you mean?<p>The absolute lack of self-reflection that is on display here is something else.
Not to get into an argument, but most of the population in the Middle East are Muslim who don't give two shits who killed Jesus because they don't believe he was killed to begin with.
You can point to the recent invasion of Lebanon and the image of an IDF soldier taking a sledge hammer to a statue of Jesus. Those might be the upset neighbors. Rightfully so as they were told to evacuate their homes so the homes could be leveled for a "buffer zone".<p>If Israel wants to be taken seriously as a nation of "normal people", they need to do something about the extreme nationalism and hate in their ranks, and the racket of protecting settlers who attack Palestinians in their homes.
Israel is committing a genocide. This is undisputed at good point.<p>The way I’m reading your comment is justifying that the genocide is necessary for Israel’s survival.<p>If that is where the pendulum is today, there’s no discussion to be had.
None of those groups funnel millions of dollars into American congress men and congress women’s pockets.<p>You are being disingenuous.
In addition to this malware, which comes from an Israeli company and is used for the purpose of subverting democratic elections in foreign countries (we don't really know who mandated these interventions, but the target, John Swinney and fellow ministers, have been vocal in their criticism of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza and the West Bank, and have imposed a form of sanctions on the Israel Defense Forces by withholding state grants to arms firms that supply the IDF and freezing support for exports to Israel), they have also infiltrated some countries like the UK and US with very powerful pro-Israel lobbies acting behind the curtain by directly contacting prominent politicians.<p>In the UK, the Israeli company Elbit Systems produces arms for Israel through its British subsidiary, which holds major Ministry of Defence contracts including the Watchkeeper drone programme (worth over £800 million) and the Jupiter training system (around £130 million) – sources: UK Companies House and MoD contract notices. People protesting for Palestinians at Elbit sites have been arrested: between 2020 and June 2024, over 140 arrests were made at more than 50 actions by Palestine Action, but police and court records show that no terrorism charges were filed, and the High Court rejected a legal challenge against policing of these protests in May 2024. Two main lobbies cover both major parties in the UK: Conservative Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Israel.<p>In the US, a similar two‑party structure exists but with far greater financial power. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and its super PAC spent over $4.5 million in the 2023–2024 election cycle, mostly to defeat progressive Democrats critical of Israel, including successfully spending $14.5 million to unseat Congressman Jamaal Bowman (source: Federal Election Commission filings). The Democratic Majority for Israel and the Republican Jewish Coalition mirror the UK's Labour and Conservative lobby groups, while the US provides Israel with roughly $3.8 billion in annual military aid – a sharp contrast to the UK's limited sanctions on the IDF. Unlike the UK, no US protester has been arrested under terrorism laws for actions against arms companies supplying Israel.<p>In practice, Israel and Russia do similar things:
they affect or subvert foreign elections by manipulating information and social media, and they directly influence politics via foundations, think tanks, and by cultivating politicians and influencers. For Russia, this includes organisations like the Russian House in Washington and sympathetic think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation – though the Heritage Foundation is American, Russian state media and proxies have actively courted its positions.<p>Russia has also influenced figures like Tucker Carlson, who repeatedly echoes Kremlin talking points, and JD Vance, who has opposed military aid to Ukraine; no public evidence proves formal recruitment, but both have amplified narratives favourable to Moscow and JD Vance made a powerful endorsement of Orban, a corrupted pro-russian statesman, in the past election in Hungary.
there's not much controversy that would pull media attention in green tech or medical research
> ... because apparently there's many more Israeli startups working on medical research, green technology and world peace.<p>> If there are, they certainly would do no harm in being more vocal ...<p>Perhaps, but - talk to someone who's done PR work for startups. Ask them what it would take for an Israeli startup working on, say, home bagel-making machines to get the sort of world-wide media attention that any Israeli creep-tech firm can get - for free - by association with a few nefarious deeds.
Just take a car drive into Haifa. That tells you all you need to know about just how much innovation is happening in Israel:<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE4JOn54rWA" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE4JOn54rWA</a><p>You pass everything, submarine design firms, intel labs, the Baha'i temple. Every kind of innovation you want: materials science, microchips, to sanctuary from muslim massacres.
There's a lot of offensive security talent, but this has nothing to do with Palestinians. Israeli intelligence is very advanced and is why Israel has been able to eliminate the leaders of Hezbollah and Iran.<p>Not everything in Israel is about or related to Palestinians. The Palestinian bias only exists in circles where every thought regarding Israel is immediately evoking a Palestinian connotation. In reality, most Israelis never interact with Palestinians.<p>To suggest that a sector of Israeli startups exists on the experience of people "suppressing Palestinians" is definitely biased, absurd, and is a slippery slope.
> There's a lot of offensive security talent, but this has nothing to do with Palestinians. Israeli intelligence is very advanced and is why Israel has been able to eliminate the leaders of Hezbollah and Iran.
Not everything in Israel is about or related to Palestinians.<p>I would suggest to you that the focus on Iran is because Iran is perceived as being an obstacle to Israeli hegemony in the region and thus undisputed Israeli rule over Palestinian territory.<p>Iran also justifies its actions in terms of standing up for Palestinians.<p>So yes, it's very much related.
> over Palestinian territory<p>This could mean anything from a couple of ghettos to all of the modern state of Israel depending on what you think Palestinian territory is or should be.<p>If you take the approach that all of it is Palestinian territory and the state of Israel shouldn't exist, then yeah, sure? that's different from the assertion that all of the intelligence related businesses in Israel are founded because of direct experience in conflict with the Palestinian people.
Iran is not strictly "an obstacle" to Israeli hegemony. Its ideology since the 1970s clearly states the destruction of Israel as its goal. It clashed with Israel over Iran's desire to set up a Shia vassal state in Lebanon and it killed Jews and Israelis all over the world through terror (e.g. AMIA bombing in Argentina)<p>The Palestinians are merely a tool for Iran to gain influence, Hezbollah and Shias in Iraq were far more important for them historically
Everything is israel is and always will be related to palestinians in some sense because it's being done on their land
Israeli here - I'll try to write this the least political as I can since I on one hand disagree strongly with the government and on the other my experience has been getting antisemstic (yes, not anti-zionist) comments whenever this gets discussed a lot (and likely downvotes but who cares I've been here 10 years and have more fake points than is important anyway).<p>Israel has several "cores" of technology. The military stuff is shameful (as well as other stuff). It's not just the NSOs (or less infamously the Wiz's/Palo Altos etc).<p>There are plenty of good things though - startups in the biotech/health/classic "tech" space. I'll spare you the long list of stuff like Mellanox that drives Nvidias in data centers and leave the googling of medtech to you. Lots of neutral stuff too.
> my experience has been getting antisemstic (yes, not anti-zionist) comments whenever this gets discussed a lot<p>I appreciate your experience. I have no doubt there's indeed been an increase in such comments. I think it's important to note that the Israeli government does work very hard to conflate Zionism with Judaism, (which itself seems antisemitic to me), making it harder for some to separate the two.<p>> There are plenty of good things though - startups in the biotech/health/classic "tech" space.<p>That's good to know, as I said in another comment, it may be time for those startups to make themselves heard more, not because they have to, but because it is in their interest if they have any expansion plans going forward, given what a poor PR the Israeli state and firms like NSO, BlackCore etc. give the Israeli tech scene.
> it's important to note that the Israeli government does work very hard to conflate Zionism with Judaism<p>This is definitely made easier by the fact that the arrogance, the endless lawyering, the shady dealings, the greediness, the constant switching between attacking and playing the victim, they all match to a tee the most known historical antisemitic tropes.
> I think it's important to note that the Israeli government does work very hard to conflate Zionism with Judaism, (which itself seems antisemitic to me), making it harder for some to separate the two.<p>Yes, they are trying their hardest with their actions to fuel a new way of antisemitism.<p>Turns out if you are a religious fundamental colony that occupies territory based on the bible, that gives bad rap to the whole religion.
Except Zionism is not religious. It is a modern secular nationalist ideology rooted in ethnicity, shared ancestry, history, culture, and language. Indeed, socialism dominated Zionism for a long time.<p>Many if not most Israelis are not religious, and traditionally, religious Jews (especially the Orthodox; an extreme case is Neturei Karta) oppose Zionism and the State of Israel as a secular ersatz, believing that they must wait for the Messiah to restore Israel.<p>Of course, in the last few decades, a faction of Zionists have commandeered the messianic for political purposes, but this is not the origin.
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> It's not based on the Bible, it's based on where we know for a fact people actually lived under the Roman empire. If not just speculation based on a 4000 year-old mythical text, it's literal documented history.<p>It's the invocation of a 'promised land', which even Israeli government officials use as a justification for their actions, that is based on (a reading of) the Bible, despite Israel being nominally a secular country.<p>I don't think many dispute there was a significant population of Jews within the Roman Empire, many of which lived in the rough geographical area of present day Israel.<p>I am not sure how any sort of present day 'inherent right' stems from that.
There's plenty of room for debate about the legitimacy of Zionism, and about what (and when) a "return to Zion" should be. Such debate has been carried out vigorously for 200 years. But it has to start from agreement on basic historical facts, and rejection of non-facts founded in bigotry.<p>Israeli government officials are politicians and vary in perspective, but by and large the Israeli government is a big part of the "nasty colonial racist" part. Their perspective exists but is not authoritative, and it is becoming increasingly unpopular around the world (including among Jews).
What is shameful about the "military stuff"? Isn't that's what is protecting you from your neighbors and their patron?
Personally, I think you're going through a hard time. An individual and a country are different, but people do rely to some extent on the image of a country when judging an individual. I agree with your logic, so I'll give you an upvote
Your PM Netanyahu is a disaster. Your religious hardliners seem to love him.<p>Even someone neutral to sympathetic can’t help but look on in disgust at your PM and his supporters.<p>Edit: The point being that it tarnishes everything that Israel does, and makes fault-finding way too easy.
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No one has ever called me a kike or Christ killer. No one has ever accused me of controlling the media or banks. No one has spray painted a swastika on my house, or my synagogue for that matter.<p>My nation, the most powerful in the world, puts a menorah in its halls of government every year for Hanukkah. The legislative and judicial branches have Jewish members at the very top level. The head of government has a Jewish son-in-law.<p>Even online, I see much more pervasive criticism of my nation than yours.<p>Yet, listen to Zionists and I’m practically living in Weimar Germany. That dog won’t hunt.<p>People have criticisms of Israel. They may be fair or unfair. Address them on the merits and leave the rest of us out it. It has nothing to do with Jews qua Jews.
> My nation, the most powerful in the world,<p>USA?<p>> Yet, listen to Zionists and I’m practically living in Weimar Germany. That dog won’t hunt.<p>Yeah this is so detached from reality I have to ask how you arrived at this conclusion and consider reexamining the way you consume information. Both in my own personal impression and according ADL global index USA's antisemitism is a low. Because "Zionists" have pro-Israel bias they will perceive any one who support Israel positively, and no one support Israel more than USA, so they will likely view USA as positive further lessening negtive views.
> Israeli here - I'll try to write this the least political<p>We are more than two years into full-on genocide and you hesitate to be political? This position reminds me of many Russians who prefer to "stay out of politics" because there are "two sides" to the conflict and it's an uncomfortable topic for them.
The Nazis did a ton of cutting edge research too.
Did they? Like, which exactly?
Rockets: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun</a><p>He later worked at NASA.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip</a>
Apart from other mentions, they also did cutting edge research on nuclear power and weapons. Some of the scientists understood how massive an undertaking that was, however the political leadership apparently did not, or the world would look different today.
The Z3 was a German electromechanical computer designed by Konrad Zuse in 1938, and completed in 1941. It was the world's first working programmable, fully automatic digital computer. [c] Wikipedia
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation</a><p>Hypothermia research, sleep deprivation research, etc. really cruel stuff.
Cant believe people like you get to vote
They also committed genocide as well. Surprising that even after Israeli human rights organizations acknowledge it, it still remains stuck in the mind of capitalists to support profit at any cost.
Selling spyware and 0days is a significant industry in Israel [1]. This includes Pegasus [2][3]. Countries around the world pay Israeli companies to hack the phones of politicians, opposition leaders, union leaders, journalists and basically anyone they don't like. This is actually a common structure for intelligence agencies who are often restricted from spying domestically or on citizens. They simply farm that out to the intelligence agencies of other countries or these spyware companies. Israel has become kind of an extrajudicial cheat code. Saudi Arabia has been a big user [4]. All of this is just objective fact.<p>No one was officially blamed for Stuxnet years ago but it's widely believed that the US and Israel were responsible [5]. And of course we had the pager operation [6]. If anyone else had done the same, they'd be labelled as terrorists and be under economic and diplomatic sanctions.<p>As for BlackCore, I guess it's part of the wider story of Israel's extensive influence campaign on foreign elections and politicians. We've seen this get really overt. For example, Thomas Massie's primary was the most expensive in history when AIPAC and AIPAC affiliates spent a combined ~$35M. I actually think it's this extreme and overt because Israel has lost the PR fight and are increasingly desperate.<p>Another less-talked about example was the character assassination of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, which was essentiallya Zionist takeover of the Labor Party and, lo and behold, a few years later we're locking up grandmothers indefinitely for holding up signs that say "Palestine Action" [7].<p>And of course we have the Jeffrey Epstein of it all where it's really obvious that Epstein was an Israeli access agent and likely Ghislaine Maxwell was as well, particularly when you look at the entire history of Robert Maxwell from WW2 to arming Jewish militias pre-1948 and the IDF after that until finally "falling off" his own yacht.<p>Oh and there are claims that some unidentified hacker breached the FBI's systems in 2023 and accessed files related to Jeffrey Epstein. There are claims that 500TB was destroyed and 400TB of that was recovered [8]. <i>That's so weird.</i><p>It's depressing to me how many people support a state that is functionally the Nazi Germany of our times. Like go ahead and find me the functional distinction between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. But also how impervious Western politicians are to public opinion on this issue, which has drastically switched in the last few years. Opposition movements are suppressed with brutal violence.<p>[1]: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOgm1IcBd0" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOgm1IcBd0</a><p>[2]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)</a><p>[3]: <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/8/what-you-need-to-know-about-israeli-spyware-pegasus" rel="nofollow">https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/8/what-you-need-to-kno...</a><p>[4]: <a href="https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/07/the-pegasus-project/" rel="nofollow">https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/07/the-...</a><p>[5]: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-12633240" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-12633240</a><p>[6]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device...</a><p>[7]: <a href="https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250807-uk-pensioner-student-arrested-for-backing-palestine-action" rel="nofollow">https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250807-uk-pensioner-...</a><p>[8]: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47184683">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47184683</a>
Remilk is an Israeli food-tech startup using yeasts to produce milk proteins. Frankly I find your comment rather odd, why should a startup be more loud because other people are biased? Diplomacy is the job of the state. We have innovative index on which Israel does well and large number of unicorn per capita.
> why should a startup be more loud because other people are biased? Diplomacy is the job of the state.<p>I agree with you that it is the job of the state to do diplomacy, I would argue that the Israeli state has done an extremely poor job at that, so it may be left to some of its greener industry to pick up the slack, unfortunately.<p>Not because they 'have to' but because they would want to if they want to expand abroad and not get overshadowed by the bad PR the Israeli state is so good at putting out.<p>I disagree with you that 'other people are biased'.<p>One of the reasons Israeli soft power is so weak at the moment is precisely because its diplomats always insist everyone is just simply biased against Israel, often invoking some thousands year old hatred of its people etc. rather than for one second introspecting on the fact that the actions of the state may indeed have something to do with that perceived bias.<p>It should indeed be the job of Israeli diplomats to work and promote Israel in the best light possible
> I got accused of bias because apparently there's many more Israeli startups working on medical research, green technology and world peace.<p>Meddling with foreign affairs is a well established practice, and that's just life.<p>Israeli do that, North Koreans do that, Russians do that, Americans do that (think former CIA/FBI people, think Palantir etc).<p>Highlighting that specific nation (Israel) for those practices while ignoring all other positive contributions (dumb example since we're on HN: Graviton processors came from Annapurna labs, an israeli company, and they gave the definitive push for ARM in the datacenter by proving it's effectively feasible and cost-effective) is borderline antisemitic.<p>So yeah, you got called out and rightfully so (and you should really review your biases).
Are North Korea and Russia "allies" of the US?
Maybe US OFAC has missed one particular state
Is the UK a US ally? Is Japan?<p>If you only focus on one country for some strange reason that you can't explain, people are going to notice. That shouldn't surprise you.
Russians do not do that. It is contrary to our culture.<p>There was a lord (knyaz) in old times who even warned enemies that he is going to attack them. Of course it is not as advantageous as a covert approach. But it is very Russian.<p>When you hear otherwise it is those other entities targeting you, that's all.
Games three-letter agencies play are the same everywhere and have zero relation to the culture. 2016 meddling did happen of course. It was also negligible and led to a huge overreaction, extremely similar to the US meddling in Russian elections in 1996 where Clinton admin indirectly prevented Nemtsov from running by supporting unpopular Yeltsin (and NGOs did a ton of "work" which barely affected anything, the main reason Yeltsin won was Filatov running the campaign, oversized spending and collusion with the media aka Xerox affair, and the "admin resource" he had).
Russia’s involvement with foreign assets is pretty well-documented. Maybe not on a hysterical level where someone believes Russian government stole elections in USA, but they definitely meddled and continue to meddle in affairs of neighbouring countries and EU, both through information campaigns and via direct actions and influence.<p>Talking about stuff from early Middle Ages (князи), it has zero relevance to modern culture. Russia is anything but isolationist as it should be clear since 2014/2022.
There are three options:<p>1. Israel is doing this in an outsized way compared to everyone else<p>2. Israel is extremely poor at doing it because it keeps getting caught<p>3. All the reporting is controlled by the antisemitic media conglomerates ruled by a shadowy council funded by Qatari money<p>I expect you to deny 1, 2 is an impossibility to you, 3 is the most likely I'd hear even though it's highly reminiscent of something...<p>Looking forward to option 4. I hope it's something more original than shouting "blood libel!".
False trichotomy
4. Small amount of people make sure to look and echo everything that paint Israel in bad light and this work, we know this work because this entire post is about a company (small amount of people) influencing New York and Scotland votes.<p>Also it is entirely possible all 1+2+4 hold
Some personal questions for you then,<p>Where do you live?<p>What colour is your skin?<p>Thank you.
"working to suppress Palestinians" isn't exactly a neutral observation, I'm not surprised you got accused of bias.