It is interesting to look at the details and see who the (news) 'media' are in this case. Going through the details, I find 1 instance (under Kemp) of the BBC, and everyone else is the 'usual suspects', the <i>Telegraph</i>, the <i>Mail</i>, <i>GB News</i>, the <i>Sun</i>, the <i>Times</i>, and so forth.<p><i>The Guardian</i> is only mentioned in context of <i>exposing</i> these conflicts of interests; and whilst I am surprised to find <i>LBC</i> and <i>Nation Cymru</i> as not being transparent about their experts and commentariat, I don't see <i>The National</i> mentioned at all, nor <i>The Herald</i>, <i>The Scotsman</i>, the <i>Metro</i>, the <i>Financial Times</i>, and <i>The i</i>.<p>This may tell us that these experts only appear in the 'usual suspect' news media. Or it may tell us that this report didn't look at a wide range of U.K. news media. The latter seems unlikely given the inclusion of some niche publications (I've never even heard of <i>London Loves Business</i> until today.) and things like <i>Nation Cymru</i>, so I am more inclined to suppose the former.
The report doesn't say the media mentioned is an exhaustive list of the media that failed to disclose ties to the arms industry, which is what you're assuming.<p>You mention the Guardian. I took one of the names listed in the report, Richard Barrons, and quickly found an article in the Guardian where he's quoted but his ties to the arms industry are not disclosed: <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/mar/20/britain-defence-policy-military-power-world-stage" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/mar/20/britain-def...</a>
Not quoted as saying that there should be some sort of budget or spending increase, which is the sort of evidence being presented in this report, but merely some historical context statement about how the armed forces had been 'right-sized for the era'; and with his political ties also mentioned.<p>That said, I wouldn't be surprised if AOAV had a blind spot with respect to <i>The Guardian</i>. However, that doesn't show one; and they did do lists of news media for several of the 19 (e.g. Richards) indicating that they aren't just picking 1 example publication for each person. Which is why I'm still inclined towards this telling us that there is a certain subset of U.K. publications in which this occurs.<p>If they hadn't mentioned <i>Nation Cymru</i> I'd be inclined towards this telling us that the report is highly London-centric and not reflective of 'U.K. media'. But they did.
I'm sorry, that's a real stretch. It's apparent to anyone reading what his comment implies.<p>And this is far from an isolated case, if you think the Guardian is an exception. We're all technical here, easy to use Google search and look up the names in the report and see how often the Guardian and the other "better" papers disclose the arms industry links. (Oh and the political party he's affiliated to isn't what's under discussion here.)
No, You're the one stretching things. If you want to provide an example from <i>The Guardian</i> that actually works, and it is as easy to do so as you say, go ahead. As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a blind spot, given who is on the staff and the byline of this very piece. But you haven't here.<p>Rather, you've showed an article where the primary complaint of the headlined report, that the potential biases of a commentator or a source are not made apparent, does not apply because the bias of the person quoted, that xe is politically connected to the government whose actions are being scrutinized in the piece, is very much given as context.
As the person suggesting that the Guardian is somehow an exception in the UK media, I think the onus should be on you to prove it. I merely pointed out that the report did not say any such thing, and gave you an example from the Guardian showing them doing exactly the same thing.<p>I'll give you more examples, but here's a challenge for you: Can you find examples of the named people in the Guardian where their arms industry links are clearly disclosed?<p>A few more:<p><i>Nick Houghton</i><p>From the report:<p>> In an article in the Daily Mail dated 2 April 2024, Baron Houghton backed the Mail’s campaign to increase defence spending. There was no mention made of his various vested interests.<p>The Guardian, also with no mention of his vested interests[1]:<p>- "Ukraine is being asked to fight a proxy war against Russia on behalf of Nato without being given the means to win it, Nick Houghton, a former head of the armed forces, told the Lords today."<p>- "Houghton also called for higher spending on defence."<p><i>Nick Carter</i><p>From the report:<p>> "Sir Nick has been quoted across various publications re-increasing defence spending, with only reference to his military status.”<p>The Guardian[2]:<p>- "The promises to bolster the defence of the Arctic came as British former head of the armed forces General Sir Nick Carter called for greater European cooperation to deter Russia and support Ukraine."<p>[1] <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/31/uk-politics-prince-andrew-latest-news-updates-labour-conservatives-keir-starmer-rachel-reeves" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/31/uk-pol...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/feb/11/ukraine-war-briefing-uk-promises-to-double-troop-numbers-in-norway-to-deter-putin" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/feb/11/ukraine-war-br...</a>
> the Telegraph, the Mail, GB News, the Sun, the Times<p>Indeed. These are pay-to-play propaganda and should not be accorded the dignity of "newspaper". Peter Oborne's resignation from the Telegraph is still worth reading: <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31510152" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31510152</a>
LBC certainly falls within the "usual suspects"
The survey excluded veterans with no commercial ties. Maybe those publications not mentioned used them instead.
Yes, and I was slightly disappointed, from a statistical point of view, that they didn't tell us how many people they excluded from the original sample for this reason. That could have told us things.<p>If (say) they threw out 967 to leave those 33, then one possible explanation that that leaves the door open for is that journalists are so used to there being no conflict of interest, it being the case the majority of the time, that they don't check in the minority of cases where there is.<p>I suspect that they didn't throw out anywhere near as many as that, though. But, still, I would have liked to have been told the figure.
> I am surprised to find LBC<p>Why? From afar my vague impression of LBC is that it's talk radio opinion slop, even if it puts in some effort to avoid the cartoonishly-far-right conservatism endemic to that genre.
Not wrong, that format requires a regular parade of guests with some kind of subject matter expertise, and if it's a military or national security topic, most of those subject matter experts are inevitably from a military or at least military policy background.
Surely all experts are employed in some form in their field? Should we have their entire CV read out before their expertise is given on a subject matter?<p>Unless there is a clear conflict of interest, such as an "expert" urging a particular course of action which aligns to benefit their employers, then the audience should probably just engage their critical thinking a bit more.<p>The majority of UK experts will probably have opinions that align with UK ethics/morality/society and urge options that benefit the UK state and it's allies. I would assume that would be an absolute given too.<p>When I watch Chinese citizens give their expertise on matters, I know that it will <i>probably</i> align with the Chinese state and benefit them (as opposed to strictly the UK state). Have people lost all of their critical thinking skills?
> Unless there is a clear conflict of interest, such as an "expert" urging a particular course of action<p>That's exactly the issue
You're asking that question in 2026?
If somebody is discussing about defense in the media the viewers/readers should know that the person works for the defense industry in a commercial role.<p>Presenting them merely as experts because they are "former X" creates a false impression of impartiality.
> <i>How the UK Security Services neutralised ‘The Guardian’ newspaper (2019) (dailymaverick.co.za)</i><p>> <i>3 points by indigodaddy on June 2, 2023 | past | 1 comment</i><p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36170406">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36170406</a><p><a href="https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-09-11-how-the-uk-security-services-neutralised-the-countrys-leading-liberal-newspaper/" rel="nofollow">https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-09-11-how-the-u...</a>
I'm not sure that the Grauniad has a particularly good <i>global reputation for independent and critical journalism</i>. It publishes the same mix of disguised opinion pieces and rather biased junk articles as the other side of the political spectrum.<p>There isn't a single news source that you can trust as such. You have to compile a lot of them, remove the unverified information and see what is left. Usually not a lot.
Whilst not commenting on that, a fascinating quote from the article you are replying to is:<p>"Viner also oversaw the breakup of The Guardian’s celebrated investigative team, whose muck-racking journalists were told to apply for other jobs outside of investigations."<p>This tells you something about why you might feel that way.
I mean they operate as a trust and wear their journalistic bias proudly on their sleeve; in terms of intent their altruism is self-evident.<p>That said, no British media is exempt from adherence to D Notices and tenets of their legal system like the concept of a super-injuction, whereby a court order prevents the reporting of the fact that the injunction exists at all.<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-injunctions_in_English_law" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-injunctions_in_English_l...</a><p>That the term was coined by a Guardian journalist covering the 2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump scandal should be context enough as to their motives and constraints.<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RJW_v_Guardian_News_and_Media_Ltd" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RJW_v_Guardian_News_and_Media_...</a>
I sort of disagree with this. I bet if you asked liberals and progressives in a country like America for a foreign newspaper they read -- if they do read one -- in most cases it is probably the Guardian. So it may be only the best of a bad bunch but it does have that reputation.
Never thought of it from that perspective. They should read multiple sources too. BBC as well, which once the articles have settled, are quite good. (just ignore the breaking stuff which is dubious sometimes)
It's an interesting fact. I have been surprised at how often <i>The Guardian</i> sneaks in to stuff that is otherwise overwhelmingly North American sources only. The Legal Eagle channel on YouTube has cited <i>The Guardian</i> a few times that I have seen, for example. And they even present it seemingly on the assumption that they don't have to explain to their viewership what <i>The Guardian</i> is. They just slap it on screen the same as they do the <i>Washington Post</i> or <i>Politico</i> or some such.
Don't know if it's just my settings (spoiler: I read the Guardian) or it's by tracking IP addresses, but at least for me, when I go to the Guardian, it defaults me to a US-specific home page. I assume British people see a different page, with more coverage of their government.
Well sure, of course they should. I'm just telling you how it is. All anecdotal, but in my experience, if you ask a liberal or progressive American for a foreign newspaper they sometimes read, at least four times in five, they will tell you the Guardian. They don't see that as "only getting their news from one source." They see the Guardian AS one of their "multiple sources," because at least it's "not from here."<p>Edited to caveat: of course, if you ask an American what foreign newspaper they read, most of the time we will say none. But if we do, it's probably the Guardian.
Breaking News Broke News<p>The BBC used to deride Sky for being "never wrong for long", but the race to "break the news" changed that. If the news is about something that happened today it's barely worth looking at.<p>Personally I get my general news from "The Week" magazine each week, which occupies half an hour on a Saturday morning. It has a selection of articles from across the UK and international press, cut down to give an idea. This week I see ones from The Observer, the Financial Times, The Sunday Times and the Spectator. There's a coverage of america, with input from the NYT, Washington Post, National Review, New Republic, Bulwark and Politico. Elsewhere coverage of Cuba includes stuff from Global and Mail in Toronto, Diaro de Cuba and El Salto in Madrid and 14YMedio in Havana.
The bbc never reported on the pedophiles in their midst and they are the good ones.
The Guardians role in modern UK society is to launder right wing talking points through a few layers of progressive sounding rhetoric so that the average person on the street can say "Well if even The Guardian agrees, maybe there is something to it."<p>A worthless rag of a paper.
fascinating article thank you for posting. Everyone should read this!
Manufacturing Consent continues being relevant
"Ex UK military members discover the private sector pays 10-20x more" underlines the title, but yes, media should disclose it. But even if they were "just" retired ex-military, their bias would be the same (being a member of the UK military).
Media in general is poor on declaring any and all bias of their various interviewed "experts".<p>Quack doctors spruiking amazing new treatments (that they hold shares in).<p>Automotive experts promoting car brands (that they receive advertising and influencer dollars for).<p>etc.
What you're seeing there is churnalism; journalists just want to get a piece printed and move on. Sometimes the whole piece comes from a source that benefits from the piece being printed, not just the expert. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churnalism" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churnalism</a><p>Sometimes the expert benefits just by being in the news, see for example NPR banning the expert they quoted 77 times, law professor Carl Tobias. Mainly because he'd write to <i>them</i> offering his opinion on the topics of the day, and as he <i>is</i> a law professor, even if the topic isn't law, NPR journalists couldn't help but accept his quotes to pad out their articles. <a href="https://www.mediaite.com/media/nprs-new-rule-for-2026-stop-quoting-the-same-professor-over-and-over/" rel="nofollow">https://www.mediaite.com/media/nprs-new-rule-for-2026-stop-q...</a>
One thing I've seen a bit in Norway, and which is relevant this month, is opinion pieces by "concerned parents" that get their writing into national news, but a quick search show that they're often head of some bigoted organization. Of course they should be entitled to their opinion and be able to express it as any other, but the news papers not disclosing this is unethical imo.
There was recently in Swedish media an article about harassment of Jews in Sweden and the guy they talked to was a member of a Zionist organisation who advocates for that Jews should move to Israel. It is fine to interview him, but such a clear conflict of interest should have been disclosed.
Many parts of Norway are much less functioning than many Norwegians understand. The media sector is one of them.
Well of course, if you're a concerned parent or concerned person of any kind in Norway, the first thing you do is start an organization. There are even some who start many, in the hope of cross-pollination.<p>What's more extreme to me is people like NRK's economy commentator Cecilie Langum Becker, who I read today went over to a lucrative job as communication chief in Aker. A corporate PR person by trade, for 8 years, she had front page space every day to push austeritarian, interest-scold propaganda that would make The Economist blush. So good of our public broadcaster to promote voices we rarely hear from in the media /s.<p>Actual grass roots organizations, even for unsympathetic causes like anti-pride, worry me less than the whole Orkla-Schibsted consensus.
> Quack doctors spruiking amazing new treatments (that they hold shares in).<p>Doctors commonly have kickback arrangements to prescribe specific medication. Sometimes it's the correct course of action they just always go for the particular brand, other times it's the wrong course of action but they prescribe it anyway for the kickback (the OxyContin scandal comes to mind).
Pharma reps "bribing" doctors prescribing habits is a thing, for sure, and varies in degree by country.<p>This is a separate issue for media reporting on (say) new tanning treatments that are endorsed on screen during traditional "news hours" in undeclared infomercial segments that feature "independant" medical experts gushing over benefits of perineum UV treatments.<p>Frequently both the company that paid for the faux news segment and the guest experts that also benefit fail to have fiscal interests disclosed.
10-20× more in private sector for senior leadership/advisory role sounds reasonable, but still, I wonder if some part of that compensation stems from the fact that the person is availing him/herself as an asset of influence, i.e. can be used to push narrative through media while posing as independent, credible expert. Needs further research and/or A/B testing I guess.
> These individuals had also been quoted, featured, or otherwise used as commentators in UK media coverage of defence, conflict, or national security issues.<p>If they are promoting defence spending or plugging their employers products that's bad, but using their experience to comment on the Iran war or Ukraine, or Russian/Chinese Spy networks doesn't seem that bad?
I think it should always be disclosed. Even when they aren't explicitly advocating for a direct benefit to their company, their overall analysis is colored by their interests. The defense industry is going to amp up risks of an aggressor, downplay the risk of appearing to be aggressive, downplay non-military foreign policy strategies etc. Allow the defense industry to influence how we think about foreign events is certainly going to influence how we think about policy and spending.
In 17 of the 19 detailed instances, it is stated that they <i>are</i> promoting increases in budgets and spending. The two others are reported as speaking with different conflicts of interest.
Does it say that in the full report somewhere else? I can't find that in the text.<p>I think most people would be surprised if ex senior military Personnel didn't think military spending should be increased.
"People who have seen the state of the military first hand are saying that we need to fund the military" is not really shocking or sinister.
It's not the message spoken that is at issue here, it is the lack of disclosure of the connection of "the expert" to those that benefit (or suffer) from the message.
It absolutely is sinister. Everything about the military is, when you decouple the rhetoric from the actions and consider what it is that those organisations actually do.
Yes, the military is fed by the one thing all cultures have in common - their susceptibility to warrior narcissism - and indeed in the modern age any military is little more than a criminal murder-class protected by a thin line of paper.<p>However, murder is meat. Wars feed people. Not often the 'right' people, but the moment one starts drawing another such thin line about who and who doesn't deserve to be fed, the narcissist demon draws closer and so then, is the warrior devil justified.<p>Anti-war rhetoric is unpopular, it is true - but there is more of it out there than most people realize, or else we'd all be ash already. Warrior narcissists are only given the space for such identity by quiet, humble peace-makers. Get louder about making peace and stay proud about it.
This is a luxury belief that requires the privilege of being unbombed. I invite you to explain this to Ukrainians.
You can't deny Ukrainian military suffers from deep corruption.
Much less than 5-10 years ago, and orders of magnitude less than the Russian military.<p>The pressures of fighting an existential war plus the demands of the public in a democracy have closed off most typical avenues for corruption, forcing a focus on battlefield results and effective supply to the front-line.<p>Nobody in the Ukrainian military is advocating for military spending for corrupt reasons, but for the country to remain independent in the face of a Russian military invasion.
What compelled you to write this? It's just a random point having no relationship to what you're replying to. Why have you typed this and pressed "reply"?
It's the UK we're talking about here.<p>To skip the currently political sensitive topics of who is helping who with what, who feels the consequences, what prices are affected because of that, let's go a bit further in the past... for example, UK taxpayers money went for bombing Iraq for the "weapons of mass destruction" when Tony Blair already knew those didn't exist.<p>At some point you have to ask, is it really for defense, if you're bombing someone a quarter of a planet away? Are you really protecting your people at home by doing that, and are they happy their money is being spent for that instead of eg. healthcare, education, etc.?
And the same UK taxpayer money is now being spent to ferociously defend Ukraine, and in turn European interests. That same UK taxpayer money is spent to promote freedom of the seas for global trade, whether it be the Hormuz, the Malacca Strait, the Indian Ocean, the Atlantic, the Baltic or the Horn of Africa.<p>Defence spending is only as good as the government that controls it, but you can't be serious if you're discounting the importance of military readiness at all times, given the world we live in.<p>The UK's military spending has always been much more justifiable, especially given that the country actually spends a lot on education and healthcare too (and I will argue that both of them are some of the SOTA systems in the world currently, in spite of their challenges).
You can't just skip the currently present and urgent defence requirements because they're "politically sensitive" and then go twenty years back to support your point.<p>But even if you want to do that, why don't you go just a couple more years further and argue that Bosnians should've been left to be genocided?
In the context of Julian Assanges' treatment by UK media, and his subsequent disassembly at Belmarsh, who cares what they have to say about Russia or China.
There's lots of indirect ways to promote "defence" spending, such as promoting more involvement in a conflict.
how can anyone trust any media report? Even if it is reported from multiple outlets? In the US the sum is around 39 billion dollars for pharma advertising, nevermind our military-industrial complex, as well.<p>How can any media that has underwriting or advertisers actually do genuine reporting? Ask yourself this!<p>The only way to really report on the "news" is to not be supported by advertisers or underwriting.<p>I've known this since Dr. Naji Dahi's class in 2002, with upkeep by Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak, as well as having worked for ABC and a KKR Joint that's all up in "media".
It is interesting that any US-centric article causing political flame wars immediately sinks here, but anything generating similar "debate" on UK issues is allowed to sit on the front page, accumulating hundreds of comments. I don't think the conversation here is evolving in way that HN tries to foster, so hopefully this one is shadow-flagged (or however the internal mod tools work) soon.
TL;DR<p>Military Experts Named:<p>Nick Carter
Chris Deverell
James Everard
Nick Houghton
Mark Carleton-Smith
Rupert Jones
Richard Kemp
Stuart Peach
David Richards
Patrick Sanders
Richard Shirreff
Sir Peter Wall
Ben Wallace
Alan West
Penny Mordaunt
Greg Bagwell
Richard Barrons
Tim Collins
Richard Dannatt<p>Media Outlets Named:<p>The Telegraph
Daily Mail
Express
The Independent
iPaper
The Sun
LBC
Sky News
Times Radio
Channel 4 News
While I'm neither a Brit, nor a professional historian, my understanding is that corruption - meaning everything from foot-dragging delivery to inferior & defective goods to exorbitant prices to outright theft - is an ageless problem in the UK military equipment & supplies business. And it was an ageless problem before the Acts of Union (1707, England & Scotland) had even created the UK. And it has rather often been a problem at such scale as to have serious strategic consequences.<p>(Not that the UK's gov't actually required outside corruption to ruinously squander military budgets. Try asking a naval historian about Britain's post-WWII aircraft carrier construction & refit fiasco.)<p>My point: News sources failing to flag defense sector conflicts of interest is a minor & downstream fuss over mediocre journalism. The <i>real</i> problem, <i>from the PoV of someone who really cares about the UK and its future</i>, is that Britain both wastes vast resources and punches far below its weight, due to its massive defense sector corruption & incompetence.
Tip of the iceberg. The Ministry of Defence and Foreign Office, among others, determine the direction of BBC news.
I wish we had a requirement for every corporation (non-profit, for profit, or politician) to disclose any and all “links”. The fact that there is so much resistance to that notion should tell people all they need to know about how toxic the people’s relationship is to these entities.
In other words: institutionalized corruption.<p>It's also a problem because who controls those media? So the taxpayers are at the least two times at a disadvantage here, private interests funding private media, to then set the agenda of reporting very selectively - or not at all in certain areas.
The problem isn't good honest journalism can't be done. Think from the point of view a good critical news story, if that news story is gonna disadvantage a powerful entity, that entity will do everything in its power to discredit and stop that news story from publishing. This is also the reason why I like social media, Game Nexus does so much impactful reporting on hardware.
what's wrong with the defence industry? If we're going to require disclosures, require them for everyone: tech, pharma, energy, NGOs, lobbying groups, former regulators, academics with industry funding, the lot ..<p>PS: the UK is not the state of California.
"our country isn't ready for war" is more difficult to disproof than "solar panels only last for 15 years", so while I agree that disclosures should go for every conflict on interest, it makes sense that the research focused only on this portion of them
i dont buy it ..if the concren is undisclosed affiliations, then study all undisclosed affiliations .. instead we get a defence only study, because "defence industry ties" are assumed to be inherently suspect ..<p>Regardless, when the topic is national security, defence- ector experience is often exactly the expertise you want... not some acadmic or commie whod rather we not
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Not surprised, UK media fails to report more important and obvious issues like the country's native population being second-class citizens and racism being enshrined in law. Always serving the capitalist class that is funding them I guess.
What racism is enshrined in law?
Special shout-out to the BBC who just embellish and release ahistorical nonsense, brainwashing kids<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M-qsVS8zeU" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M-qsVS8zeU</a><p>On top of ton of social programming with an overrepresentation of eg mixed race couples in shows
So, a Horrible Histories sketch correcting a common misconception is "ahistorical nonsense, brainwashing kids", because you happen to believe the common misconception? You're <i>really</i> not going to like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions_about_history" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions_...</a>, if I have understood you correctly.
What has your comment (and the GP comment) got to do with the featured articles?
1. Calling it the "defense sector" is already quite biased. Almost all of that sector's activity involves offensive activity. Or just call it the "arms industry" etc. If we were less charitable, we could well call it the "war industry".<p>2. Reading the article we note there's quite some overlap between arms industry links and links to Israel's fundraising and lobbying circles. I wonder whether UK media discloses those links.
The UK doesn't have some imperialist policy of land grabs like Russia, or diplomacy through violence. In the current Iranian war the UK is only allowing it's bases to launch defensive missions, i.e. strike offensive capability or incoming missiles. So no, it is in fact the defense sector.<p>What countries have a defense sector, if the UK doesn't?
Iraq and Afghanistan might disagree with your first point.<p>Last time I looked Iran and the UK are quite some distance from each other, and Iran has inexplicably neither been launching missiles at the UK, nor threatening to, and is apparently not even capable of it.<p><a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crm120x4lzxo" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crm120x4lzxo</a><p>So the justification for these "defensive" bombing runs on Iranian mountain sites from Fairford remains mysterious.<p>The UK's arms industry is - like most things associated with the establishment - an exercise in turning privilege into cash, so it's not a surprise to see Senior Figures doing the media rounds in establishment narrative factories like The Telegraph and The Daily Mail.<p>Readers with the money and connections to make a difference already know how the game is played.<p>Readers who don't should perhaps be allowed to keep their happy fantasy that the UK isn't one of the most corrupt countries in the world, as a mercy.
Iran attacked the British base in Cyprus with drones so has directly attacked British territory. Iran has also been sponsoring terrorism in the UK. Iran has also attacked an American base on British territory.<p>> one of the most corrupt countries in the world<p>A ridiculous exaggeration given what a lot of other countries are like.
Helping the aggressor with its offense or defense during the aggressive acts is taking part in the aggression. States have international obligation to not engage in or promote aggression and to not take part in it. UK voluntarily took this obligation on itself.<p>I guess it's debatable whether the drone attack was proportional. I'd say that attack on clearly military installation of active ally is proportionate. Bombing bases in Britain would be more appropriate I think, since that's where the bombers that attacked Iran flew from and were loaded with weapons.
Iran has been funding terrorist networks who are active in the UK and has taken direct action against UK citizens before on numerous occasions.<p>They are also allied with Russia who are doing the same.<p>They aren't some innocent party here. Geopolitics is complicated and not some black and white good guy bad guy mechanics.
> In the current Iranian war the UK is only allowing it's bases to launch defensive missions, i.e. strike offensive capability or incoming missiles.<p>Claiming that the UK doesn't support diplomacy through violence then transitioning into this gem has to be one of the wildest juxtapositions I've seen this year. Do you classify the US strikes on Iran as uniformly offensive or defensive in nature? Or do you think there is a mix? How would you classify a US bombing run on anti-air defences in the opening phase of the conflict?
The UK has only allowed the US to use their air bases to strike Iranian offensive capability and intercept missiles launched towards middle eastern cities. Iran bombed an airport in Kuwait yesterday, for example.<p>It's pretty obvious how the the UK's actions vs. Iran's, or even the US's, are different.
Yeah, "striking offensive capability" of a country is aggression and the country that strikes, and it's helpers are all aggressors and in the wrong as far as intl. law goes. You need to work on understanding how causality works. What happened yesterday has no bearing on what happened 2 months ago.<p>If UK/US wanted to be in the in the clear they could have asked UNSC to authorize use of force against Iran.
Nope. The UK only responded after its own territory had been struck, as had that of allies in the region who were not part of the US and Israel’s actions.<p>Its role has been entirely defensive, and legal under international law as part of the right to self-defence.
> In the current Iranian war the UK is only allowing it's bases to launch defensive missions, i.e. strike offensive capability ...<p>Reminds of the old joke, "What propaganda? We don't have propaganda."
I can't tell if your first sentence is a joke or not...
Iran.<p>It didn't attack anyone until it was attacked.<p>It has been defending itself.
Iran attacked countries that played absolutely no role in the US and Israel’s attack on it, including some (like Oman) that have been fairly closely allied to the regime.<p>That goes far beyond what’s permissible in international law in response to an attack.<p>In my view the US and Israeli attacks on Iran were illegal, reprehensible, and deeply stupid. But that doesn’t mean Iran is allowed to do whatever it wants afterward, especially to countries not directly involved in hostilities. In this case Iran has also broken international law.
They have been trying to kill people in the UK for years. And have been funding proxies everywhere, some of whom have attacked the UK. We're not really even involved and I find it hard to agree with this point.<p>However it should have been dealt with earlier rather than latent bombing.
You could easily be describing the UK, Israel, and the USA, lol.<p>Anyway, I live in the UK, and I don't swallow the same propaganda as you.
> In the current Iranian war the UK is only allowing it's bases to launch defensive missions, i.e. strike offensive capability<p>If Iran struck all of the UK's missile factories and military bases, would it be considered a defensive or offensive action?
Context matters. Did the UK start a war with Iran? Or did the UK decide to hit surrounding countries (France, Norway, Netherlands, etc.) to destabilise the region and target an Iranian airbase in Spain?<p>I would assume there's a bunch of countries around Iran that appreciate UK's help in intercepting missiles.<p>I would assume there's a bunch of countries around Iran that don't appreciate the US starting a war of choice.
Defending those launching illegal strikes is still offensive, in both meanings of the term.
> The UK doesn't have some imperialist policy of land grabs<p>Not directly, mostly; and not through land grabs. The age of land grabs is pretty much over - but imperialism lives on in different form - including massive military interventions and covert operations for manipulating or replacing regimes, more that properly conquering and settling lands.<p>Today's UK is not an independent empire of this kind. It used to be; but now it is relegated to being a junior partner in its alliance with the US empire, mostly, and with the EU, to a lesser extent. This is reflected in its top 10 arms recipients, e.g. for 2024 [1]:<p>Saudi Arabia, £14bn
United States of America, £8.3bn
France, £5.2bn
Qatar, £3.5bn
Italy, £2.8bn
Oman, £2.5bn
Turkey, £2.3bn
India, £2.3bn
Norway, £2.2bn
United Arab Emirates, £1.7bn<p>and there are also arms Israel for about £0.572bn; and the arming of Ukraine, a cooperation with both the US and European powers, as part of NATO's struggle against Russia.<p>The UK also sends troops as part of US imperial interventions, e.g. in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. There are also UK-dominated or UK-only interventions abroad, but mostly if we go a few decades back [2].<p>[1] : <a href="https://www.thenational.scot/news/24272310.uk-arms-exports---countries-buying/" rel="nofollow">https://www.thenational.scot/news/24272310.uk-arms-exports--...</a><p>[2] : <a href="https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-uks-83-military-interventions-around-the-world-since-1945/" rel="nofollow">https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-uks-83-military-intervent...</a>
war is peace etc etc
They still own Falkland Islands.
Defensive missions? Was the UK under attack?
The UK has allies in the region. Kuwait was bombed just yesterday. And a UK airbase was targeted.<p>Are you arguing that the entire world should never provide aid to other countries? Surely you're just calling for imperialist powers to gobble up the planet piece by piece.
I guess schoolgirls were naughty and saying bad words about the UK, hence arming the American planes with bombs to use on civilians and civilian infrastructure.
You are quite the hypocrite to call the UK not a imperialistic country. They are probably the greatest of them all. They have far more blood on their hands in foreign interventions than Russia and China combined. In fact they are still occupied with abuse and destruction throughout the world. You are naive and victim of propoganda for not seeing this.
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><i>The UK doesn't have some imperialist policy of land grabs</i><p>It has centuries of exactly that at a global scale, and continued post-war neo-colonial land grabbing and pressuring, plus eager participation in all the imperialist games of its larger brother.<p>I mean, just mentioning "Tony Blair" is enough...
20 years since he was in power...
What land did Tony Blair grab? You can disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq without making the exaggerated claim that this was part of some kind of long-term imperialist occupation. The UK currently has fewer military personnel in Iraq than it has in, say, Germany. And Britain doesn’t control the Iraqi government.
I think something Brits don't fully understand is the extent of our vassalage under the US.<p>We do, as you rightly note have quite the history of a policy of imperialist land grabs, now we just play a support function to somebody else's empire.
Ok, but you can say the same for the US. It also has vastly more troops in Germany than Iraq, and it also does not control the Iraqi government. And the less said about Afghanistan the better. So where is the land grab?
One does not need to dictate every item of policy to control a country, one just needs to ensure that there's alignment on strategic issues. I think this was America's key point of learning when it took over the reins of the European empires after WW2.<p>In Germany, historically the strategic issue was anti-communism, but now it serves as a military logistics hub; in Iraq, it's about trade in oil in dollars and access to Iraqi oil fields for US companies.<p>The UK is more complex and more total, ranging from support in the security council, to access to markets for US goods and services, to stationing of US troops and hardware. Most of our economy is geared up for the benefit of US investment funds.<p>Any government, whether it be Germany, Iraq or the UK, which tries to alter any of these fundamentals will quickly find out the extent to which their land has been grabbed.
Or, to put it more succinctly, Iraq is occupied by the US in about the same sense that Germany is. And while the US no doubt exerts influence over Germany in part via its military power, I think the position that the US military presence in Germany is part of a “land grab” would be a rather fringe one.
It depends where you're sat and when. It's almost certainly a fringe perspective in the US, because I don't believe American's really think about it that much.<p>Whether troop presence is viewed as occupation or not in each of the >50 [1] countries currently "hosting" troops is very much a matter of personal perspective, the fringeness of which will vary from country to country.<p>I don't believe that it really changes the fact that yes, US troops occupy the UK, Germany and Iraq, and many more. The most substantial deployments, e.g., Germany, Japan, South Korea, and until recently Iraq and Afghanistan, were very much the product of invasions. At the time of those invasions, many of those on the receiving end would have very much felt on the receiving end of a land grab. It's just their grandchildren have been conditioned to view this state of affairs as natural.<p>The general pattern is "bomb the bejesus" [2] out of a country. Plant base. Install a friendly government and ensure a favourable operating environment for US interests. The UK is an exception in that it wasn't bombed by the US, but the upshot is the same. We're a wholely-owned subsidiary of corporate America, and a giant aircraft carrier on the other side of the Atlantic -- as the US's latest adventure in Iran has clearly demonstrated.<p>You may quibble over the "land" in land-grab, but the strategic bits (e.g., oil fields, bases) are very much owned, and the territory as a whole controlled by pliant governments.<p>[^1]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases#United_States" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_oversea...</a><p>[^2]: Kissenger, 1972
I don't think it's fair to compare US foreign policy to actual imperialism as practiced by the Soviets, the British, etc. The US does not maintain colonies, and, as you point out, does not even attempt to exert total control. Pursuing your interests and forcing total political and cultural domination are not equivalent. The US is more than happy for Germans to be German, Japanese to be Japanese, etc, as long as US interests are prioritized. This is clearly not the case for other major powers.<p>Nations (and people) exist in an ecosystem, and so will always behave accordingly, and always in their own interests. There are some emergent properties of ecosystems, one of which is that optimal behaviour is to acquire the maximum you are physically capable of defending, not the minimum that you need to survive.<p>It's perfectly reasonable for the US, the big fish in the pond, to leverage its advantages accordingly, and to the maximum. It would be a disservice to the US people if it did not. Smaller fish should indeed be glad that the big fish is as placid and strategically (rather than ideologically) motivated as it is, given the historically experienced alternatives.
><i>What land did Tony Blair grab? You can disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq without making the exaggerated claim that this was part of some kind of long-term imperialist occupation.</i><p>Yeah, just a few decades years, to secure oil deals and/or keep control of the region. No biggie.<p>That this can be said with a straight face about invasions to two countries that created civil war, suffering, hundreds of thousands of deaths, displacement, etc, is telling of the ever-present colonialist mindset.
My post wasn’t defending the Iraq war. It was just pointing out that the war was not a land grab. Iraq is not now a part of the UK or US (in contrast to the situation with Russia and Crimea, for example).
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_installations_in_Iraq" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...</a><p>For anyone else interested, negotiations that could lead to the US leaving Iraq and fully returning control to the Iraqi people are also going swimmingly, according to reports.
Saying that it's the invasions that created civil wars and suffering in Afghanistan and Iraq is just exceptionally ignorant. Here's a taster: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ba%27athist_Iraq" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ba%27athist_Ir...</a><p>For all their failures, the allies never bombed cities with nerve agents.
Your page says:<p>> Saddam committed crimes of aggression during the Iran–Iraq War<p>Which links to a page about the war:<p>> Iraq was aided by [...] the United States, the United Kingdom,<p>> After years of military and economic losses, decreasing morale, intensifying Iran–U.S. relations, and little international action against Iraqi attacks on Iranian civilians, Iran agreed to a ceasefire with Iraq under United Nations Security Council Resolution 598.<p>So they basically did.
Your biases are hanging out. Like hemorrhoids.<p>The British empire has been completely wound down, other than a handful of small overseas territories.<p>How long do you plan on holding the currency set of British people responsible for things they didn’t do?
><i>The British empire has been completely wound down, other than a handful of small overseas territories.</i><p>Just because Britain couldn't afford it anymore. And after bloodshed, in India, Kenya, Cyprus, Malaysia, and elsewhere. Not out of the bigness of their heart.<p>And the post-colonialism never ended. The same grabby hands get everywhere they can get.<p>And why exactly are those "small overseas territories" unquestionably retained? "No biggie, just an island here, an island there, and island there, some land in here"
I really would have expected a much more reasoned approach from the likes of you Mr coldtea.<p>Historically I’ve found your comments informative, well thought out, and entertaining.<p>Here’s the Wikipedia article on the BOTs <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories</a><p>I’m willing to acknowledge those locales probably remain British territories, at least some of them, as an spect of projecting force, in addition the to historical quirks.<p>I probably don’t know enough.<p>And, ultimately, it would be nice if everyone got along and was generally content to stay in their lane.<p>Would the former British colonies be doing better or worse had they never been colonised? Quite possibly better. We’ll never know. At least some of the former colonies have failed spectacularly. That’s probably a good enough reason to never try any of that again.<p>I’m trying to steelman your arguments here Mr coldtea. Not only that, I have also raged against what happened in a similar manner from time to time.
> Would the former British colonies be doing better or worse had they never been colonised?<p>It's not necessarily correct to assume that they failed because they were previously colonised by the British. Should we have instead allowed other powers to colonise them? That is the only realisitic counterfactual here. Can we truly say the world would have been better off if the British had not colonised various countries, for example when it came to waging the Second World War?
oh, i see you misunderstanding. he obviously meant the ruling class, those epsteinites. nobody cares about british <i>people</i>, they're just ... people!
> Almost all of that sector's activity involves offensive activity.<p>What do you mean? As in invading other countries?
Just on the facts,<p>* assisting US offensive actions,<p>* weapons sales for offensive usage (eg: The UK government admits that Saudi Arabia has used UK weapons, made by companies around the UK, in its attacks on Yemen.)
He is quite correct though. By calling it "defence" industry, it is insinuated that this is always a moral right use of arms. In reality one would have to look on a case by case basis to see which use really qualifies as defence. In many cases I would not call it defence, for instance, if money is used to overthrow other governments and so forth. Or the Falklands War as an example - technically one could claim the UK had to "defence" its territory, but at the same time one has to question the use of colonies in the first place.
"war industry" is <i>still</i> very charitable! If you have any standards that distinguish a war from indiscriminate killing, they probably violate those standards in a large proportion of their business.
No wonder they are so pro russia (but pretend otherwise ), they want the war to go on and on, have people die on both sides.
“This research does not suggest that any individual cited in this report deliberately concealed their commercial affiliations from journalists. Rather, it highlights a recurring failure by news organisations to disclose potentially relevant industry interests when presenting former senior military figures as independent expert commentators on defence, conflict, and national security issues.”<p>“Of course, holding private-sector roles after military service is both lawful and commonplace. This is not the point of this report. Rather, the concern highlighted here is about the UK’s media.”<p>“The findings presented here do not argue that the individuals identified are acting improperly, nor that their analyses lack merit, however we assert that the public has a right to full and relevant information when evaluating expert commentary, particularly where it involves lives, public expenditure, and international security.”<p>“It is important to note that this report does not allege wrongdoing on the part of the individuals identified, nor on the part of the publications presented within the pages of this report.”<p>Practically every third paragraph reiterates this.
Source? The UK has been extremely vocal about defending Ukraine's sovereign rights and has spent a lot of money supplying it with defensive equipment.<p>Russia despises the UK. The UK does have a few right wing pro Russia people, just like the US does. Just like most of Europe does. It is the fringe view and not reflected in state policy.
It seems the same goes for international media to some extent.This example passed as nothing although it should have been everywhere: The general reportedly stated that the UK Ministry of Defence could stage a "mutiny potentially up to a coup d'état,if Jeremy Corbyn -as a potential Prime Minister) attempted to Leave NATO.
<a href="https://monthlyreview.org/articles/anatomy-of-a-propaganda-campaign-jeremy-corbyns-political-assassination/" rel="nofollow">https://monthlyreview.org/articles/anatomy-of-a-propaganda-c...</a>