13 comments

  • whatshisface2 minutes ago
    This may seem extreme, but it must be considered in the full context of the package of policy proposals that would also eliminate the grants themselves. This balances out any concerns of bias. See you in 50 years when we read about the consequences (on European electronics.) :')
  • spacedoutman27 minutes ago
    Well, america had a good run i guess?<p>Hope china can step up and fill the gap.
    • yahway11 minutes ago
      Kek. Was the previous system any better?
      • Larrikin1 minute ago
        Kek lol, such a good point using kek
  • amanaplanacanal3 hours ago
    A return of Lysenkoism. Nice!
  • quantum_state1 hour ago
    It would spell the start of major corruption and the end of American sciences. God, please do something about it!
    • bayarearefugee1 hour ago
      Not exactly the start of major corruption.<p>The Trump 2.0 administration was already easily the most corrupt in American history well before these rules were proposed.<p>To their credit(?) they don&#x27;t even try to hide it, they are just fully corrupt out in the open, because they know the cultists who support them will support anything they do.
    • rayiner1 hour ago
      You don&#x27;t need God&#x27;s intervention. If you trust the scientific establishment to make decisions on how to allocate taxpayer dollars, then vote for an executive who promises to do that. Definitely don&#x27;t vote for the guy who campaigned on taking discretion away from unelected bureaucrats.
      • unclebucknasty1 hour ago
        Many of us did vote for sane ideas, like allowing scientists to make decisions about science. For instance, we knew RFK Jr would be a disaster and here we are, dealing with a resurgence of preventable diseases.<p>In fact, &quot;unelected bureaucrats&quot; have been the key to whatever degree of success this democracy has enjoyed. Politicizing everything replaces non-partisan expertise with political loyalty and favoritism. It&#x27;s a direct path to the destruction of critical institutions, undermining the public trust, and authoritarianism.
        • decremental1 hour ago
          [dead]
        • rayiner33 minutes ago
          &gt; In fact, &quot;unelected bureaucrats&quot; have been the key to whatever degree of success this democracy has enjoyed.<p>False. The idea of governance by &quot;neutral technocrats&quot; insulated from politics was nascent in the late 19th century. Woodrow Wilson wrote a seminal paper on it in 1887: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;%22The_Study_of_Administration%22_by_Woodrow_Wilson_(1887)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;%22The_Study_of_Administration%22_by...</a>. He took steps to implement the idea during his presidency, but the modern administrative state really arose in the 1940s. (For example, the Hatch Act, which prohibits civil service employees from engaging in electoral politics, was enacted in 1939.)<p>But America had already caught up to Britain as the richest country in the world (per capita) by 1870 or so, and had clearly surpassed Britain by 1900: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;us-gdp-per-capita" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;us-gdp-per-cap...</a>. America&#x27;s &quot;success&quot; is attributable to a stable republican democracy where GDP per capita has grown at a remarkably consistent 1.7% annually since the 1830s. It&#x27;s not attributable to any political development that arose in the 20th century.
  • wrs1 hour ago
    And a generation of young scientists starts packing their bags...
    • glitchc1 hour ago
      To where?
      • etrautmann33 minutes ago
        Plenty of scientists can and will work in industry roles or quit entirely. It’s already a crazy proposition and should not be made any harder. Finding funding can be a brutal and continuous challenge that demotivates many.
      • thatcat59 minutes ago
        A Thielian sea steading homeless encampment for intellectuals in international waters named Titanic II.
      • era-epoch39 minutes ago
        personally know american scientists who are well into the process of relocating their work to institutions in canada or europe
        • bayarearefugee32 minutes ago
          Similarly, I know several scientists who were born in Europe but were long-term residents of the US running university labs here who already moved back to Europe last year, when it became pretty obvious where this was all heading.
      • darknavi37 minutes ago
        Beyond the environment
      • Taek58 minutes ago
        To somewhere other than science
  • michaelhoney35 minutes ago
    and so continue the decline to a dumber, poorer, nastier nation
  • cookiengineer23 minutes ago
    But it&#x27;s got electrolytes!<p>My question is now: Which company is gonna buy the IRS now?
  • srean1 hour ago
    Wait, wasn&#x27;t that post revolution USSR &#x2F; Mao&#x27;s China ? Or in other words, only correct science is &quot;Marxist&quot; science
    • SubiculumCode1 hour ago
      When Republicans start proposing Communist policies, they are MAGA, not Republicans.
      • fnordpiglet35 minutes ago
        Neither cited countries are&#x2F;were communist, they are authoritarian. That’s the political system of government, capitalism and communism is the economic system.
        • pdpi0 minutes ago
          The two aren’t independent.<p>Marx’s idea of communism required a “dictatorship of the proletariat” as an intermediate stage between capitalism and communism. Lenin took that notion and, under the pretence of needing absolute power to prevent a counter-revolution, turned it into the totalitarian regime of the USSR. Since then, communism and totalitarianism have gone hand in hand.
        • SubiculumCode14 minutes ago
          Fine.
  • ChrisArchitect2 hours ago
    Related:<p><i>What&#x27;s Happening to Science in America</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=48313687">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=48313687</a>
  • pstuart2 hours ago
    I&#x27;m curious to see how this is defended by the party members here.<p>Science should be guided by science, not ideology.
    • Georgelemental1 hour ago
      Science is a tool. It does not &quot;guide&quot;, no more than a hammer guides.
      • jszymborski35 minutes ago
        Guides as an astrolab or compass might
      • stirfish1 hour ago
        The form of a tool guides its use. You can tell what a hammer is for just by picking one up.
      • SubiculumCode1 hour ago
        I get a research grant after peer review. The grant funds my salary and propels my career. I criticize Trump publicly about his graft. Trump tells them to pull my grant. My career takes a hit, and I lose my house.<p>Or I can be a chickenshit, and praise Trump and have a career, however pathetic. I routinely ask them to approve my results before publishing, just in case. I apply for grants looking at vaccines and autism. Every Friday, I spend an hour talking about how Trump is America&#x27;s chosen one.
      • smohare1 hour ago
        [dead]
    • jordanpg2 hours ago
      Unfortunately, these are agency rules. Congress can intervene, but only with major legislative action, which is unlikely. There will be hearings and Senators will express great concern, but the Administration will probably be able to do whatever they want. If anything slows this down, it will be the courts.
      • rayiner2 hours ago
        If Congress wants to earmark that money for a particular purpose it can enact that into legislation. If it wants to empower the executive to make the decision, they can do that too.<p>Those are the only people who get to decide. Congress can’t turn over the expenditure of taxpayer funds to people who aren’t politically accountable.
        • paulryanrogers1 hour ago
          &gt; Congress can’t turn over the expenditure of taxpayer funds to people who aren’t politically accountable.<p>If Congress doesn&#x27;t stop the executive and the Supreme Court overrules any legal blockades then ... I guess they can and are doing so RN.
          • rayiner1 hour ago
            &gt; Congress doesn&#x27;t stop the executive<p>Congress won&#x27;t stop the executive because the party that won the executive also won Congress by almost 4 million votes. That&#x27;s not a sign of the system not working, it&#x27;s a sign of the system working as intended.
            • SpicyLemonZest53 minutes ago
              No, that&#x27;s not accurate. Trump has subverted Congressional leadership to his dictatorship, and they routinely abuse their power to stop Congress from voting on things Trump finds politically inconvenient. The House is in recess right now to dodge a vote on the Iran War that Trump would be sure to lose.
      • pstuart2 hours ago
        The courts have truly been the last line of defense.<p>Congress being neutered is not an accident, hopefully it will be less fucked if the power balance shifts.<p>And as the OP is inherently political in what it&#x27;s calling out, that is not the motivation -- it&#x27;s the science. I get the fact that in the end, everything&#x27;s political but partisanship itself is a cancer on the body politic. Just as we seem to be in late-stage capitalism, we are entering late-stage democracy. It pains me that we effectively arrive here by choice.
        • dc3962 hours ago
          Congress neutered itself, largely because it has been politically less risky to let the Executive branch do whatever they want, then either cheer it on or rage against it depending on party and what drives donations so congress members can get reelected.<p>The system is fundamentally broken.
          • pstuart1 hour ago
            I agree that it&#x27;s fundamentally broken but I&#x27;ve been around to see it work and <i>watch</i> it fail.<p>The executive branch obviously is going to wield as much power as it can, but only one party is actually advocating for the executive as king.<p>So yes, both parties are the same when it comes to the corruption of the party leadership, but there are distinctly different platforms and ideals espoused -- and <i>that</i> difference matters.
        • esseph2 hours ago
          &gt; hopefully it will be less fucked if the power balance shifts.<p>We are never going back to where we were. That is past us now. There is only forward.
          • pstuart1 hour ago
            We are very much in uncharted waters and the rules have been thrown out the window. At the risk of repeating myself, wherever we are it is effectively collectively by choice. It&#x27;s all about hearts and minds, but really hearts. I&#x27;ve come to the horrific realization that hate and stupidity are easily weaponized (I&#x27;m a slow learner), but hopefully that can be outnumbered.
            • rayiner1 hour ago
              &gt; I&#x27;ve come to the horrific realization that <i>hate and stupidity</i> are easily weaponized<p>The FDR coalition was literally <i>southern segregationists</i>, immigrants, and black people, all in the same party. If &quot;hate and stupidity&quot; wasn&#x27;t a barrier to people voting together in their material self-interest in 1936, it sure as hell isn&#x27;t a barrier in 2026.
              • pstuart6 minutes ago
                Wow man, FDR twice in a week and both cases awkwardly used.<p>But yes, he wielded populism masterfully. As you made a point about <i>southern segregationists</i> it should be noted that it was general economic populism without emphasis on race.<p>When Johnson championed the Civil Rights act it set the stage for the <i>Southern Strategy</i> where once race was a top tier issue that hate and stupidity was weaponized to move all of those segregationists to the Republican Party.<p>Rayiner, once again your point does not land because it is not cogent. Not only that, you missed the whole point of &quot;hate and stupidity&quot; as literally a unifying force as a tribal fury that is directed towards &quot;others&quot;. In a contemporary case, it is against &quot;liberals&quot;. I can only assume that you might have <i>personal</i> insight into this.
            • monkpit1 hour ago
              Pick one, it’s by choice or by hope, not both.
    • noobermin1 hour ago
      American moderates are amazing. &quot;Let&#x27;s see how suburban republicans feel about this that Trump has done! He&#x27;s really spoiled his chances next election!&quot; You guys have been waiting for the non-fascist republican voter for more than a decade at this point.
    • delichon2 hours ago
      The people who have the power of the purse should be accountable to the voters.
      • ncallaway2 hours ago
        That’s Congress and they are.<p>The executive branch does not hold the power of the purse, and the fact that you can casually use that phrase in reference to the executive branch shows how far we’ve fallen as a country in a decade.<p>A very sad state of affairs.
        • paulryanrogers1 hour ago
          This Congress has deferred to the president so hard, it&#x27;s difficult to see where one ends and the other begins. Based on recent primaries the R party is only becoming more sycophantic.<p>At times they don&#x27;t even cotify their subservience through the usual measures like legislation and committees, except where needed to slap down any roadblocks to the unitary executive.
          • bayarearefugee47 minutes ago
            They (Republicans in Congress) are all terrified of Trump, with some good reason (not that this excuses their dereliction of duty in any way).<p>It doesn&#x27;t matter how aligned you are with his worldview, how much you vote alongside his wishes, if you aren&#x27;t 100% loyal to him personally at all times you&#x27;re politically dead in the Republican party in much of the US.<p>While Trump&#x27;s ability to sway normal elections is next to non-existent anymore (see: the vast majority of special elections held since his inauguration where Republicans are getting roflstomped by Democrats), his endorsement still decides Republican primaries because there&#x27;s still a lot of brainwashed Republican cultists on the Trump train.
      • analog311 hour ago
        Even aside from who manages the purse, accountability doesn&#x27;t need to mean being able to defend every single funding decision. That would be a sign of bad management in any business, for instance. To me it means competently managing an institution.
    • andai2 hours ago
      Indeed. Science has always been purely neutral and free any kind of social, cultural, institutional or economic pressures. That&#x27;s the whole point!
      • dc3961 hour ago
        Science? Maybe in an ideal world. However, how science actually gets done has always been at the mercy of social, cultural, institutional, and&#x2F;or economic pressures.
        • paulryanrogers1 hour ago
          Weren&#x27;t they exaggerating to communicate sarcasm?
    • rayiner2 hours ago
      The country runs on the principles of the constitution, not the institutional principles of science. Control over spending of taxpayer funds always must remain within the political system.<p>Voters can always choose to turn over those decisions to scientists they trust. For much of the 20th century, that’s what voters did. But if they don’t trust the priorities of the current scientific establishment, they can also choose to put that control back in the hands of political appointees. The institutional principles of science cannot override the prerogative of voters to decide how their money is spent.
      • SubiculumCode39 minutes ago
        No, what it means is that scientists are vulnerable to punishment for speaking their minds about the administration. I will not live like that.
        • rayiner30 minutes ago
          Only if voters remain loyal to the administration that does that, in which case that&#x27;s exactly what should happen. If you want taxpayer dollars, you should make nice with the people taxpayers elect to represent them.<p><i>I</i> do not intend to live in a country where supposedly unelected organizations think they have independent jurisdiction to spend public money independently of the political system.
          • SubiculumCode16 minutes ago
            No. We have a system of laws. Canceling contracts without cause as punishment for free speech is wrong.
      • jordanpg2 hours ago
        That&#x27;s a lovely thought but it assumes, as with so many other things about our republican form of government, that the political appointees are good faith actors, at least with respect to funding of science. There are many reasons to suspect that the goal here is not just control of funding, but the defenestration of science more broadly because scientific findings tend to conflict with assertions politicians would like to make. I would submit that people flying on planes, using cell phones and computers, and going to the doctor don&#x27;t want that, even if they think they do.
        • rayiner1 hour ago
          &gt; That&#x27;s a lovely thought but it assumes, as with so many other things about our republican form of government, that the political appointees are good faith actors, at least with respect to funding of science.<p>It doesn&#x27;t assume that. It&#x27;s simply a factual matter that the rules that govern the country are those of the constitution. And the institutional principles of particular fields are subordinate to the constitutional structure.<p>What you&#x27;re overlooking is that everything is just people. Political appointees are people. But &quot;institutions&quot; are also people. &quot;Science&quot; is just people. And the important question is: <i>who are the people who have the power to decide</i> how taxpayer money is spent?<p>The only possible answer in a republic is that people accountable to the political system are allocated that power. People in the scientific establishment--people with degrees from universities and credentials from professional organizations--cannot be granted power to spend taxpayer money independent of the political system. They only have power over those decisions to the extent the political system chooses to confer that power.
          • gammarator28 minutes ago
            The political system, representing the taxpayer (primarily via Congress), has always dictated scientific <i>strategy</i>--do we build the Superconducting Supercollider or cancel it; do we return a sample from Mars or not; do we sequence the human genome. How big a budget do we devote to medical research compared to physics, etc. Scientists advocate, but politicians decide.<p>However, the nuts-and-bolts day-to-day <i>tactical</i> decisions have before been made through expert peer review, by scientists. Given a fixed and finite budget set by Congress, what is the best way to make discoveries?<p>Having been on grant review panels, it&#x27;s brutal--at 5 or 10:1 oversubscription rates, your peers will find any flaw in your proposal.<p>Political appointees are deeply unqualified to make these judgments. To take a very specific example: the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy is headed by Michael Kratsios. He has a BA in politics and has never written a scientific publication. (Every prior OSTP head was a PhD scientist.) The OMB memo says he and those like him should decide what to fund without deferring to scientists. How is he going to assess which of 50 proposals on (say) &quot;hypothalamic SH2B1 neurocircuits and SH2B1 signal transduction pathways&quot; is the good one?<p>He can&#x27;t, so he&#x27;ll either choose AI or graft. Both are destructive to our once world-leading scientific enterprise.
            • rayiner11 minutes ago
              The division of responsibility you describe has no legal significance. <i>All</i> decision-making authority ultimately rests and must rest with the political system. Of course, the political system may <i>choose</i> to delegate certain decisions to experts and panels and whatnot. But that&#x27;s a <i>choice</i>. The institutional principles of science are irrelevant except to the extent the political decision-makers find those principles persuasive (which they often do).<p>Our laws actually are written to reflect more or less what I&#x27;m describing. The laws governing HHS grants, for example, provide for various expert committees and whatnot. But they also provide the appointed director of the HHS tremendous discretion to override those decisions. That&#x27;s not new--those laws are decades old.
          • kxrm1 hour ago
            You seem to be forgetting that one man is making these calls, not the people.
            • rayiner10 minutes ago
              Yes, the man who the people picked to be the CEO of the executive branch for a 4-year term.
          • selimthegrim1 hour ago
            And when they made Islam official religion of Bangladesh in the constitution, what’s your take on that?
            • rayiner24 minutes ago
              My take is that they shed their blood to have their own nation and they&#x27;re entitled to structure their affairs however they please. It that&#x27;s also what precipitated my family to leave. Just because Bangladeshis have the right of self determination doesn&#x27;t mean we have to or want to live in a country with them.
          • FireBeyond13 minutes ago
            &gt; It&#x27;s simply a factual matter that the rules that govern the country are those of the constitution.<p>How many times has this administration blatantly ignored the Constitution, starting with, for a simple example, separation of powers?<p>You&#x27;re all locked in on &quot;scientists should be beholden to the government, as that is the lay and law of the land&quot; which ignoring the rather large mote that is &quot;this current government couldn&#x27;t give one single fuck about following the laws of the land&quot;, like issuing directives to federal agencies to consider federal court rulings as &quot;advisory&quot; or &quot;not final&quot; or &quot;not applicable&quot;.<p>When the corruption of the law of the land starts at the top, you&#x27;re busy insisting that those trying to follow the <i>stated intention</i> of the institutions that employ them ignore that because, well, what RFK Jr or worse, Stephen Miller, are the way we do things now, law, constitution be damned.
          • unclebucknasty52 minutes ago
            The statement, &quot;everything is just people&quot; begs the question. That question is about appropriate roles.<p>No one is debating that Congress has the power of the purse. That is one of their primary roles. They appropriate, but obviously cannot and should not make every detailed decision, particularly where expertise is required and political neutrality is preferred. Accountability is another primary Congressional role. That comes through oversight, not day-to-day decision making on behalf of those being overseen.<p>Even if it were desirable to have politicians making decisions in place of scientists, granting that decision-making power to political appointees instead of Congress actually undermines the public&#x27;s representation and further shifts the balance of power to the Executive.
          • SpicyLemonZest1 hour ago
            It seems like your argument is proving way too much. If next President announces that he feels rural hospitals are an inefficient use of resources, and so all residency programs outside of major metro areas are cancelled, would you accept that as a legitimate use of funding discretion? To me it would sound like an obvious campaign of retribution against groups he finds it politically convenient to punish. (A campaign of retribution I will happily support, if Trump gets away with things like this - but I&#x27;d prefer to avoid going down that road!)
        • Georgelemental1 hour ago
          [dead]
  • globalnode1 hour ago
    Its all the way down to the bottom now, enjoy.
  • Georgelemental1 hour ago
    &gt; “We warned of this exact form of government overreach in science a year ago,” says Colette Delawalla, founder of the science advocacy group Stand Up for Science. “It replaces expertise with political appointees, globally decouples the U.S. and completely guts our scientific ecosystem.”<p>If you want to be independent of the government, don&#x27;t take money from the government. If you are mad because you don&#x27;t agree with how the government is making decisions, say so. But don&#x27;t pretend it has anything to do with &quot;government overreach&quot;
    • paulryanrogers1 hour ago
      Science has often been funded by private and state benefactors. Regardless of the source, it&#x27;s most often successful when the funds have few or no strings attached.<p>Perhaps more political oversight will make research more accountabile to the population at large. In this era I suspect it&#x27;s far more likely to benefit the few, those born into power and fame who are consolidating their power. Scientists with resources and accountable only to other scientists are uniquely dangerous to those unwilling to give up their power.