14 comments

  • pouwerkerk9 hours ago
    Of course the article is about the archaeological discovery, but if you&#x27;re curious (as I was) what the poem is, it&#x27;s &quot;Caedmon’s Hymn&quot;:<p>&quot;Now we must praise the protector of the heavenly kingdom the might of the measurer and his mind’s purpose, the work of the father of glory, as he for each of his wonders, the eternal Lord, established a beginning. He shaped first for the sons of the earth heaven as a roof, the holy maker; then the middle-world, mankind’s guardian, the eternal Lord, made afterwards, solid ground for men, the almighty Lord.&quot;<p>via <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imagejournal.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-the-first-english-poet" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imagejournal.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-the-first-eng...</a>
    • simonask9 hours ago
      Thanks, came to the comments for this!<p>Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa.<p>That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words and the grammatical structure of the poem, even if it would make for a much more awkward text. For example, this text translates &quot;middangeard&quot; as &quot;middle-world&quot;, which is correct, but it is cognate with &quot;Midgård&quot;, which is the Norse mythological name for Earth. (In Scandinavian translations of J.R.R. Tolkien, &quot;Middle Earth&quot; is translated as &quot;Midgård&quot;.) I think this lets us understand more about how writers of Old English understood the world, and how it was connected to the broader mythological landscape in North&#x2F;Western Europe around this time, how Christian and Pagan belief systems were interacting through language as the region was in the process of christianization.
      • WillAdams5 hours ago
        Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tolkiengateway.net&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tolkiengateway.net&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo...</a><p>that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w&#x2F; my own money (along w&#x2F; _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.
        • vi_sextus_vi4 hours ago
          Pedantry:<p>Tolkien&#x27;s &quot;Middle-Earth&quot; is itself a &quot;folksy mistranslation&quot;<p>Closer translation-- &quot;Middle-Yard&quot;<p>Old English word <i>eardgeard</i> =Earth-Yard<p>&#x2F; ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd &#x2F; &quot;ardyard&quot; &#x2F;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theundergroundmap.com&#x2F;article.html?id=104937" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theundergroundmap.com&#x2F;article.html?id=104937</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;english.nsms.ox.ac.uk&#x2F;oecoursepack&#x2F;wanderer&#x2F;notes&#x2F;note85a.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;english.nsms.ox.ac.uk&#x2F;oecoursepack&#x2F;wanderer&#x2F;notes&#x2F;no...</a>
          • vintermann3 hours ago
            I guess that&#x27;s where Tolkien&#x27;s &quot;Arda&quot; comes from as well then.
          • card_zero2 hours ago
            Or even <i>garden.</i>
            • lostlogin2 hours ago
              Thank you. I’m not American and was trying work that out.<p>I went straight to metric and Middle Metre approximate and is wrong.
      • shelled8 hours ago
        As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it&#x27;s spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go back far enough (not even prehistoric &#x27;far enough&#x27;) in each case (even the languages which are geographically distant currently). But then, of course, civilisation happened.
        • btilly2 hours ago
          Yes. There is a reason why a family of languages is known as Indo-European.<p>For something completely different, try learning Mandarin.
        • walthamstow7 hours ago
          My father in law is a Persian speaker. I was very surprised to learn that thank you (mersi) is the same as in French, and OK&#x2F;indeed (baleh) is the same as in Spanish.
          • bradrn6 hours ago
            Persian <i>mersi</i> is actually a direct borrowing from the French [1]. Not sure about the other one, but I guess it’s just a coincidence, as happens so often in language [2].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wiktionary.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Persian" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wiktionary.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Pers...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zompist.com&#x2F;chance.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zompist.com&#x2F;chance.htm</a>
          • tralarpa3 hours ago
            Spanish vale and English value have the same Latin origin. Persian bale is an Arabic loanword.
          • nephihaha6 hours ago
            Arigato in Japanese is said to be a borrowing from Portuguese Obrigado (might want to verify that!).
            • qingcharles43 minutes ago
              Japanese is fascinating to me as a language freak for the enormous amount of borrowing. As an English speaker, as long as you can decode katakana (easy to learn) you can probably walk around the streets of Tokyo and read half the signs.
            • rhplus2 hours ago
              Even more interesting is when words are borrowed back!<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Reborrowing" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Reborrowing</a><p>For example, katsu from cutlet, is borrowed back into English to mean… cutlet.<p>And when combined with “curry” as in “katsu curry” the journey meanders all the way through Tamil, Portuguese, Japanese and English, following sailors where they went.
            • lproven5 hours ago
              No, it&#x27;s documented, as is <i>tempura</i>. It&#x27;s like pancakes: you make them before the time of fasting. &quot;The Time of X&quot; in Spanish is &quot;tempora X&quot; and I would bet Portuguese is similar.<p>There are loads.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_Japanese_words_of_Port...</a>
              • card_zero3 hours ago
                It&#x27;s listed there under False cognates.<p>&gt; evidence indicates arigatō has a purely Japanese origin<p>I remain suspicious, though. Maybe what happened was the popularization of an existing Japanese term under the influence of Portuguese Jesuits, since it sounded similar to <i>obrigado?</i>
                • nephihaha2 hours ago
                  Perfectly possible. I think I&#x27;ve seen evidence elsewhere of similar but unrelated words influencing each other. For example, round about where I live the Romany word &quot;shan&quot; is used meaning &quot;mean&quot; or &quot;worthless&quot;, but it seems to have been influenced by the unrelated &quot;sean&quot; in Gaelic (also pronounced &quot;shan&quot;) which means &quot;old&quot;. So it&#x27;s come to mean something worn out as well.
                  • BalinKing1 hour ago
                    In general, I think this phenomenon is called &quot;phono-semantic matching&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Phono-semantic_matching" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Phono-semantic_matching</a>.
              • nephihaha5 hours ago
                Gura mie eu.
                • lproven4 hours ago
                  She dty vea. :-)<p>(I do not actually speak Manx, but 2026 is the Year of the Manx Language. I should learn some.)
                  • nephihaha3 hours ago
                    I know a little. I was taught by Brian Stowell many years ago and have his novel here along with a Manx Bible.
        • mdp20216 hours ago
          Brother! I hope you have have also studied a bit of Latin and Greek, to see the great similarities, and paths like that of &quot;jñāna, gnō̃́sis, gnosco, knowledge&quot;.<p>It is a very great thing that so many peoples now speak languages with clear common roots buried behind the deviations of use; and outmost interesting to recognize the plan and the deep thought in those radixes.
          • anthk5 hours ago
            &quot;Conocimiento, conocer&quot; in Spanish (to know).
            • wolfi15 hours ago
              isn&#x27;t Spanish some form of Latin (being colonized by Rome for centuries), what I would be interested in, if there are some Vandal leftovers in nowadays Spanish
              • wolfi14 hours ago
                sorry, it was the Visigoths, not the Vandals
              • anthk4 hours ago
                Guerra, perro, more that I can&#x27;t remember, and a good chunk of names (in Spanish):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;muyinteresante.okdiario.com&#x2F;historia&#x2F;60526.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;muyinteresante.okdiario.com&#x2F;historia&#x2F;60526.html</a><p>Well, let&#x27;s see:<p>Perro, guerra, mes, pagar, ver, fuego, tierra, cima, perro, clero, altar, tribunal, rey... lots more. Tapa, dardo, ganso, ropa, guardia, sala, cama, barro, guijarro, zarza... more than anyone would think. Aspa, espía, brotar... and the -engo suffix. Visicothic and Celtic cultures are more ingrained in the North&#x2F;Middle of Spain more than anyone would think despite everyone pictured it as a 100% Mediterranean culture.<p>Rico&#x2F;rich, fresco&#x2F;fresh, Blanco&#x2F;blank, ganar&#x2F;win... is not a coincidence.<p>Heck, tons of Medieval lore in the Castilles use a Gothic typeface...<p>Engo&#x2F;enco suffix in words, related to -ingos in Gothic.<p>On names and surnames... Alonso, Alfonso, Guillermo, Fernando, Hernando, Hernández, López, -everything ending with -ez-, Leovigildo, Rodrigo and tons more.
        • nephihaha6 hours ago
          The Lithuanian Swadesh list includes the following words and I was able to find numerous relatives to Gaelic. I could be wrong about some. Obvious similarities to Latin in some cases too, maybe loanwords. But one can see the Indo-European connections.<p>Lithuanian and Celtic had no direct contact with each other AFAIK, although Celtic was in contact with Vasconic, Romance, Germanic and Slavic... And Lithuanian was in contact with Slavic and Germanic, maybe Finno-Ugric...<p>Obviously numbers...<p>Sniegas - Sneachd — Snow<p>In — An(n) — In<p>Najas — Nuadh — New<p>Marios — Muir (genitive mara) — Sea<p>Srūti (to flow) — Sruth (stream)<p>Mirti (to die) — Murt&#x2F;mort (murder)<p>klausytis (to hear) – cluas (ear), cluinntinn (listen)<p>sekla — sìol — seed<p>Senas — Sean — Old<p>Vyras - Fear (plural Fir)- Man (wer(e))<p>Dantas (tooth) - Deudag (toothache)<p>Ugnis (fire) — Aigeann (fireplace)<p>Raudonas — Ruadh — Red<p>Dienas (day) — Di- (day in day names) – Day<p>Pilnas — Làn — Full<p>Kaire — Ceàrr — Left<p>Dešinė — Deas — Right
        • anthk5 hours ago
          It&#x27;s all about Proto-Indoeuropean. You can get tons of words from Latin and Sanskrit and compare them.
        • roysting5 hours ago
          I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless.<p>It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to devise a language that would unify historic language origins roots in a contemporary time. The objective would be to stop the death and eradication of languages, e.g., Welsh, German, or any of the numerous other smaller languages and dialects that are all under varying states and types of endangerment or extinction risk, but also prevent an ignoble, unstable, and inadequate language like contemporary English from dominating the whole world.
          • tsimionescu2 hours ago
            &gt; The objective would be to stop the death and eradication of languages, e.g., Welsh, German, or any of the numerous other smaller languages and dialects<p>How is German, a langauge natively spoken in two nation states and quite a few neighboring regions, being eradicated?
          • detourdog4 hours ago
            I’m sure you are aware of Esperanto.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Esperanto" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Esperanto</a>
            • detourdog59 minutes ago
              You are both more involved than I am. I only brought up Esperanto because it seemed as if there was no awareness of effort in this type of language development.
            • lproven4 hours ago
              I preferred Interlingua...<p>But these days, Slovio would help me more.<p>I&#x27;ve tried Slovio on Slavs of about 10 nationalities. None had ever heard of it. All of then, no exceptions, could just understand it perfectly well, to their great surprise.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.interlingua.com&#x2F;interlingua-en&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.interlingua.com&#x2F;interlingua-en&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slovio.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slovio.com&#x2F;</a>
              • amdsn1 hour ago
                I find slovio to be jarring. It&#x27;s like someone took vaguely slavic words and slammed Esperanto-inspired grammar onto them. Something like Interslavic at least has noun&#x2F;verb morphology that is much more familiar to all Slavic language speakers. I could imagine myself actually speaking Interslavic, but not the case for Slovio. It&#x27;s simply too strange.<p>Straight from the Slovio website:<p>&gt;Slovio es novju mezxunarodju jazika ktor razumijut cxtirsto milion ludis na celoju zemla.<p>&gt;Slovio is a new international language that 400 million people on the planet understand<p>I am a Russian speaker so the copula &quot;es&quot; being written is strange but obviously I speak other languages that use their copula in the present tense so that&#x27;s not so bad, but to 100% of slavic speakers &quot;jazik&quot; (tongue&#x2F;language) is masculine, yet the adjectives here are reminiscent of ones for a feminine noun in the accusative case which is doubly weird as that case would also make no sense here. The second half of the sentence isn&#x27;t so bad aside from &quot;ludis&quot; (-s plural is alien to the entire family) and &quot;na celoju zemla&quot; (more confusion where my brain expects a different case form). It&#x27;s just odd that it completely drops noun cases on the floor when almost all the Slavic languages still have healthy productive inflection systems.
      • helsinkiandrew4 hours ago
        There was a UK TV show years ago that I&#x27;ve always remembered where the presenter tried to buy a cow using Old English with a Frisian speaking farmer in Holland:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34</a>
        • jschveibinz2 hours ago
          You&#x27;d probably enjoy &quot;The Story of English&quot; series:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&amp;si=Kw3JUDhM9Euomnr5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&amp;si=Kw3J...</a><p>or &quot;The History of English&quot; series:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27mZUQfKnj&amp;si=MxDVgrm_ML8_LU48" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27...</a><p>In the second series, there is a weather report in Frisian that vaguely sounds like English.
          • arethuza2 hours ago
            I suspect a lot of people in the UK today would pronounce &quot;brown cow&quot; as &quot;broon coo&quot; - certainly I would have when I was a wee loon ;-)
        • gilleain3 hours ago
          &#x27;The presenter&#x27; here being Eddie Izzard :)
      • TFNA7 hours ago
        &gt; I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words<p>This is how the Icelandic sagas were translated into English in the nineteenth century. Translators then almost always chose the English cognate of the Old Norse world, even if that English cognate was obsolete or its meaning had changed. Far from helping immerse readers in the medieval world, the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy, and in the twentieth century publishers like Penguin replaced those translations by new ones with a very different approach. More judicious use of the Germanic lexicon in English, à la Tolkien, provides a more appealing atmosphere of olden times.
        • lproven5 hours ago
          &gt; the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy.<p>Oh my. I find the reverse. It&#x27;s spooky and enchanting because once I know all the cognates I feel like I can magically understand the original.
      • jgilias8 hours ago
        Out of curiosity, what are the other two realms? (I assume it’s two)
        • e12e8 hours ago
          In Norse mythology &quot;the nine realms&quot; encompass the entire world - but there&#x27;s no definive list of what realms constitute the nine.<p>In the center, humans inhabit Midtgård. The gods in Valhall and the Jotun in Jotunheim.<p>Then there&#x27;s also Helheim or Hel - for the dead, Alfheim for the elves, Svartalfheim for the dwarves...<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commons.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Category:Locations_in_Norse_mythology" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commons.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Category:Locations_in_Nor...</a>
        • simonask8 hours ago
          There&#x27;s actually nine:<p>- Vanaheim, home of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with fertility.<p>- Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.).<p>- Jötunheim, home of the Giants.<p>- Alfheim, home of the elves.<p>- Helheim, the underworld (&quot;Hell&quot;).<p>- Svartalfheim &#x2F; Nidavellir, home of the dwarves.<p>- Midgård, home of the humans.<p>- Muspelheim, home of fire elementals.<p>- Niflheim, world of mists.<p>(This is the commonly accepted list, but it&#x27;s always worth mentioning that surviving literary sources of Norse mythology are very scarce. Much of the lore was reconstructed in the 19th century.)
          • yesbabyyes52 minutes ago
            &gt; - Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.).<p>Freyja, along with her brother Freyr and their father, Njörðr, is one of the Vanir.
            • simonask11 minutes ago
              Yes, but lives in Asgård.
      • PaulRobinson8 hours ago
        English is claimed as being influenced heavily by every nation that conquered England, because of course it was: Latin via the Romans; Anglo-Saxon&#x2F;Gemanic; then Viking; and, then the Latin&#x2F;Romance influence again via France&#x2F;Normandy.<p>And of course, English develops organically (unlike, say, French), allowing new words to emerge, and for old words to take on new meanings. I love it.<p>As an Englishman, I always find it interesting that there is this weird defined notion of &quot;Englishness&quot; in language, culture, whatever, when our entire history is one of mashing and remixing ideas over at least 2,000 years, and recent discoveries at Stonehenge push that back potentially by 3,000-5,000 years more.<p>I particularly like the irony of the far-right going on about English identity on a march in London before going to have a lager and chicken tikka masala before heading home to a bungalow and putting on their pyjamas... :)<p>I think the Scandinavian roots you talk about trace back to common Germanic roots perhaps, but also the Viking aspect will influence a lot. I think English has been &quot;dipped into&quot; by those roots a few times in history, as has Latin.<p>On the need to keep the etymology aligned in translation: I think this is a routine challenge of the translator&#x27;s skill, and why so many people have different views of different translations of the same texts.<p>The Bible could easily be translated in many different ways, but the &quot;King James&quot; version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK (and seems to be the common root for US church bibles too), but a more modern translation would be possible, as would one that has a closer etymological meaning to the original sources.<p>It&#x27;s all interpretative. If people are building entire belief systems and ways of life (and arguably, laws for society), around a translation, and getting it off in a few places, it&#x27;s likely we&#x27;re going to run into the same problems even more when translating Tolkien or an ancient poem...
        • pbhjpbhj8 hours ago
          &gt;the &quot;King James&quot; version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK<p>I don&#x27;t find this to be true. Even at high mass (&#x27;bells &amp; smells&#x27; type communion) you get more modern versions. To my recollection NIV would be most common. Obviously not a representative survey. Also, it might be at traditional&#x2F;formal services you get [N]KJV as I&#x27;ve been to less of those.<p>Amongst very old people you see strong support for KJV because that&#x27;s what they learnt 70 years ago. It sounds very archaic to modern ears. I&#x27;d say KJV hasn&#x27;t been favoured this side of the millennium.<p>Just my impression.
          • celebril6 hours ago
            A bit of correction: the version you&#x27;ll most likely see being used across the Church of England nowadays is NRSV. It&#x27;s the scholarly translation.<p>NIV is the preferred translation for the low-church side, the evangelicals, so definitely won&#x27;t be used by the bells-and-smells high church crowd. KJV is preferred by a niche who also prefers the Book of Common Prayer liturgy over Common Worship. Usually this is either an older population, a certain ethnic subgroup with calcified traditions, or old-school low church folks (so not modern evangelicals) who prefer the old ways and even the Thirty-Nine Articles.
            • pbhjpbhj1 hour ago
              You&#x27;re right re [N]RSV in CoE. But I think of Anglican - perhaps wrongly - as extending outside CoE to encompass a range of reformed Protestant communions. I&#x27;ve seen NIV used in CoE too, but yes NRSV too and more often.
        • rsynnott7 hours ago
          &gt; I particularly like the irony of the far-right going on about English identity on a march in London before going to have a lager and chicken tikka masala before heading home to a bungalow and putting on their pyjamas... :)<p>Stewart Lee had a good bit about this:<p>&gt; [..] &gt; ‘Bloody Beaker folk. Coming over here, rowing up the Tagus Estuary from the Iberian Peninsula in improvised rafts. Coming here with their drinking vessels. What&#x27;s wrong with just cupping up the water in your hands and licking it up like a cat?’<p>Racism always tends towards the silly, of course, but British ethnic nationalism particularly so, given the history. What’s ’British’, anyway?
        • simonask8 hours ago
          Yeah, I share your fascination.<p>My understanding is that Old English vocabulary mostly predates Viking invasion, but even then the colonizers would have a large shared vocabulary with (non-Celtic) British natives, who would be the descendants of Anglo-Saxon settlers a couple of centuries earlier.
        • jfengel6 hours ago
          The Roman influence is limited mostly to place names. Otherwise Latin had basically disappeared from the island.<p>Latin influences English as a learned tongue, used by clerics and academics. Other than that most of it comes via French, when the Normans brought it.
          • TFNA5 hours ago
            &gt; The Roman influence is limited mostly to place names. Otherwise Latin had basically disappeared from the island.<p>Recent research, namely an article by Lars Nooij &amp; Peter Schrijver [0], suggests that a population speaking Latin&#x2F;Romance may have remained present in Britain until the late first millennium. Granted, the effect of this local Latin would have been on Welsh more than English.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1515&#x2F;9783110776492-004" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1515&#x2F;9783110776492-004</a>
        • mc327 hours ago
          Well you had the Norman invasion; acquired lots of Norman French words yet fought the French several times over the centuries. One thing doesn’t have to do much with the other.
    • zozbot2344 hours ago
      This was archival research, not archaeology though. This book was located in an archive, and it&#x27;s mostly in Latin with the Old English content being quite incidental, which explains why it was not noticed until now.
    • jibal7 hours ago
      The article has a link to the poem under the text [Caedmon’s Hymn] (unsurprisingly).
  • rubzah8 hours ago
    This is the text in Old English for anyone looking: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.poetryfoundation.org&#x2F;poems&#x2F;47296&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-56d227a3b602f" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.poetryfoundation.org&#x2F;poems&#x2F;47296&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-5...</a><p>Actually, here is the full text with the modern English inserted:<p><pre><code> Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard Now let us praise Heaven-Kingdom&#x27;s guardian, metudæs mehti and his modgithanc the Maker&#x27;s might and his mind&#x27;s thoughts, uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs the work of the glory-father—of every wonder, eci dryctin or astelidæ. eternal Lord. He established a beginning. he ærist scop ældu barnum He first shaped for men&#x27;s sons hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator; tha middingard moncynnæs uard then middle-earth mankind&#x27;s guardian, eci dryctin æfter tiadæ eternal Lord, afterwards prepared firum foldu frea allmehtig the earth for men, the Lord almighty.</code></pre>
    • rsolva3 hours ago
      Knowing both Norwegian and Dutch, most words here is surprisingly similar to modern words:<p>hefenricæs = himmelrikes (no)<p>uerc = werk (nl)<p>eci = evig (no) &#x2F; eeuwig (nl)<p>ærist = eerst (nl)<p>barnum = barn (no)<p>sceppend = schepper (nl)<p>EDIT: Hearing the poem read also gives dutch &#x2F; germanic vibes: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gutenberg.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;19677&#x2F;ogg&#x2F;19677.ogg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gutenberg.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;19677&#x2F;ogg&#x2F;19677.ogg</a>
      • rubzah23 minutes ago
        thanc = tanke (thought)<p>uuldurfadur = alfader (all-father)<p>uundra = under (wonder)<p>halig = hellig (holy)
    • pbhjpbhj8 hours ago
      Oh, what? Is &quot;eci&quot; (eternal?) the origin of &quot;Ecki Thump&quot; - Yorkshire version of OMG?
      • lproven5 hours ago
        And indeed the ancient and mysterious Lancashire martial art, of course.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodiesruleok.com&#x2F;articles.php?id=17" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodiesruleok.com&#x2F;articles.php?id=17</a>
        • pfdietz59 minutes ago
          Which has nothing on the secret Welsh art of self-defense, Llap Goch.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.llapgoch.org.uk&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.llapgoch.org.uk&#x2F;</a>
      • mock-possum3 hours ago
        Oh my god is that where Icky Thump comes from
    • ButlerianJihad6 hours ago
      Public Domain audio:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;librivox.org&#x2F;caedmons-hymn&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;librivox.org&#x2F;caedmons-hymn&#x2F;</a><p>The text is read in the Early West Saxon dialect. Same version found here (incl. OGG Vorbis format):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gutenberg.org&#x2F;ebooks&#x2F;19677" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gutenberg.org&#x2F;ebooks&#x2F;19677</a><p><pre><code> Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard metudæs mehti and his modgithanc uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs eci dryctin or astelidæ. he ærist scop ældu barnum hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend tha middingard moncynnæs uard eci dryctin æfter tiadæ firum foldu frea allmehtig </code></pre> &quot;Caedmon&#x27;s Hymn&quot;
  • cyocum8 hours ago
    My degree is in Celtic Studies. This kind of discovery may be surprising to those not versed in it but not those who have studied these languages. Some of the best preserved Old Irish, for instance, is in St. Gallen in what is now Austria and Milan.<p>There is still an entire Medieval European world out there in the archives still waiting to be discovered. Sadly, there are not many of us who have the skills to do this and we are not paid very well or often not at all.
    • zeegroen5 hours ago
      Oh that&#x27;s interesting! In my mind we are now on the cusp of being able to scan all these archives and have them be read by LLMs (in a first pass). Do you agree with that assessment, or am I being naive here?
      • giraffe_lady1 hour ago
        I&#x27;m not in this field but I know someone who used to be and we&#x27;ve talked about it a fair bit. A quick overview of what&#x27;s needed from what I understand:<p>Old books aren&#x27;t that neat, you tend to have a lot of notes and other documents, translations, scribal annotations from different eras interleaved or in the margins. You need to make decisions about that stuff as you go, which requires being informed about the context and meaning of those documents, that may well be in another language, or from hundreds of years before or after the document you&#x27;re trying to process. For any given physical object it&#x27;s quite likely that no single scholar has all the information necessary.<p>It is also extremely important to preserve <i>all</i> the context, things like which exact pages a fragment is stuck between, even its orientation, can be critical information to later scholars. And then in all of this you&#x27;re handling ancient &amp; precious one of a kind paper documents. It&#x27;s just slow going, and well beyond what I would even consider &quot;skilled labor&quot; this very much <i>is</i> the work of research &amp; scholarship. By the time you get a camera pointed at a page you&#x27;re at the easy part.
        • cyocum19 minutes ago
          This is pretty true in general. Many have spent entire careers doing cataloguing of manuscripts and what is in them. The Royal Irish Academy did that in the early to mid part of the 20th century. The National Library of Scotland also has done theirs. It is painstaking and often unappreciated work.<p>As for imaging, there is Irish Scripts on Screen (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.isos.dias.ie&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.isos.dias.ie&#x2F;</a>) which covers many different places and time periods.<p>Answering the grandparent comment, LLMs are not good at Old Irish. Seriously, they are awful at it. There is just too little data for it to work. I wrote a very little bit about text clustering in Old&#x2F;Middle Irish (see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1515&#x2F;9783110680744-005" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1515&#x2F;9783110680744-005</a>). I think the better place to start is transcription and there are some tools out there which help, like Transcribus (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.transkribus.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.transkribus.org&#x2F;</a>), which I haven&#x27;t used but it looks useful.<p>edit:typos
      • IAmBroom3 hours ago
        Even digitizing sources this old entails quite a lot of manual labor.
  • conartist66 hours ago
    Here&#x27;s the old English poem! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.poetryfoundation.org&#x2F;poems&#x2F;47296&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-56d227a3b602f" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.poetryfoundation.org&#x2F;poems&#x2F;47296&#x2F;caedmons-hymn-5...</a> Should be in the public domain by now eh?<p><pre><code> Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard metudæs mehti and his modgithanc uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs eci dryctin or astelidæ. he ærist scop ældu barnum hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend tha middingard moncynnæs uard eci dryctin æfter tiadæ firum foldu frea allmehtig </code></pre> I couldn&#x27;t make hide nor hair of it without the translation, but with the translation I see quite a few more words than just &quot;and his&quot; that have stayed around:<p><pre><code> hefen: heaven uerc: work uard: guard&#x2F;ward hrofæ: roof æfter: after middingard: Earth, to Marvel allmehtig: almighty</code></pre>
    • card_zero2 hours ago
      I think also there&#x27;s barnum = bairn&#x27;s (as in children), and foldu = fold (as in sheepfold). Or just <i>field,</i> same thing.
      • conartist62 hours ago
        Huh, we don&#x27;t have bairn in the US. I totally missed &quot;foldu&quot;. The literal translation is that god made earth a pasture, then?
    • ButlerianJihad3 hours ago
      Despite what The Poetry Foundation claims, and despite the Modern English translation by one of their own, the Early West Saxon text is Public Domain.<p>Although The Poetry Foundation still promises to track all your content<p>The OP article, published by Trinity College Dublin, and the original, and the photograph, are expressly CC-BY-ND 4.0. This is not a &quot;free license&quot;, but it is a Creative Commons License.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theconversation.com&#x2F;we-found-a-lost-copy-of-the-earliest-surviving-english-poem-in-a-medieval-manuscript-in-rome-281086" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theconversation.com&#x2F;we-found-a-lost-copy-of-the-earl...</a>
      • conartist63 hours ago
        It looks to me like Poetry Foundation did it right. The modern translation has a copyright notice, the Early West Saxon version has none. I was being a little coy as anything older than Mickey Mouse is fair game. It&#x27;s not a particularly marginal call, if you know what I mean
  • saltmate9 hours ago
    1,3k years ago is such a weird way to write it. Makes sense if we are talking millions of years, but why not write &quot;in 700&quot; or just &quot;1300 years ago&quot;
    • toyg8 hours ago
      The title is from the HN user, the actual post uses 1,300 everywhere.<p>So you can write it down to tech brainrot.
    • badc0ffee40 minutes ago
      Probably a German or French speaker forgetting that , is never a valid decimal separator in English.
    • electroglyph8 hours ago
      it was 1.3e-6 billion years ago!
    • Ekaros8 hours ago
      Century would be plenty. And having Rome mentioned with some weird negative number leads to first thought being English in Roman era? How does this deduct...
    • pegasus9 hours ago
      Yeah, I felt the same. Especially since 1300 uses the same numbers of characters as 1.3k
      • ezequiel-garzon8 hours ago
        Probably they mean to convey significant digits, though I feel it&#x27;s safe to assume people would read &quot;1300&quot; as an approximation, not pointing to the year 726. I found it odd too.<p>Edit: &quot;The newly-discovered manuscript in the National Central Library of Rome of Caedmon’s Hymn dates from between the years 800 and 830, making it the third oldest surviving text of the poem.&quot; So... 1.2k then?
        • dghf7 hours ago
          The manuscript is ~1200 years old, but the poem was composed earlier. The Venerable Bede, who died in 735, includes it and the story of its composition in his <i>Ecclesiastical History of the English People:</i> according to that story, it was composed while Saint Hilda was abbess of Whitby, c.660-680.
        • dotancohen8 hours ago
          Another commentator mentions that the poem may have been published 1200 years ago, but authored much earlier.
  • alex-moon4 hours ago
    I absolutely love post-Roman, pre-Norman British writing because it&#x27;s so rare it gives the era a sense of mystery. This is of course the time when King Arthur is supposed to have lived. In the absence of contemporary records, the impulse to fill it with wizards and dragons is understandable.
    • pfdietz56 minutes ago
      You might enjoy this YT channel:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@CambrianChronicles" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@CambrianChronicles</a>
    • cindyllm3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • Agingcoder8 hours ago
    For those interested in learning old English, I’ve been going through Oswald Bera by Colin Gorrie -<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;colingorrie.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;osweald-bera&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;colingorrie.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;osweald-bera&#x2F;</a><p>Basically it’s a full blown story&#x2F;graded reader with no modern English apart from vocabulary. You build an understanding of the language as you read the book and what is initially gibberish becomes quite clear as you progress . It does help if you’ve had a lot of exposure to German ( vocab and grammar), or barring this any case inflected language.<p>What’s noticeable is that it’s about 200 pages long, so the story gets quite sophisticated , and rather unexpectedly the book is a bit of a page-turner !
    • agos7 hours ago
      This is super interesting! I wonder if there is something like this for other languages!
  • KPGv218 minutes ago
    It&#x27;s absolutely amazing to me that we&#x27;re still discovering things that are held by major libraries. This wasn&#x27;t discovered in a limestone tomb, accidentally preserved. It wasn&#x27;t in the basement of some hoary building that was once the personal library of the Medici.<p>This was in a <i>modern</i> library that was built recently (1975), by historical standards. This book would have been, at minimum, catalogued, packed, and unpacked to verify it made the trip. It was&#x27;t missing. It wasn&#x27;t unearthed. It was just never <i>read</i>.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cenl.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;the-central-national-library-of-rome&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cenl.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;the-central-national-library-of...</a>
  • thewanderer19836 hours ago
    Here is the translation from the article. Which is slightly different from what is listed below in the comments.<p>Now let us praise Heaven-Kingdom&#x27;s guardian, the Maker&#x27;s might and his mind&#x27;s thoughts, the work of the glory-father—of every wonder, eternal Lord. He established a beginning. He first shaped for men&#x27;s sons Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator; then middle-earth mankind&#x27;s guardian, eternal Lord, afterwards prepared the earth for men, the Lord almighty.
  • ChrisMarshallNY3 hours ago
    I wonder if it starts &quot;There once was a man from Londinium...&quot;<p>- I&#x27;ll get my coat...
  • deafpolygon5 hours ago
    It really baffles (and amazes) me that Old English is practically unintelligible to modern day English speakers.
    • lproven5 hours ago
      If you go back half a millennium, most languages are the same.<p>The sign above the door at the primary school outside Karlstejn Castle is unreadable to a speaker of modern Czech.<p>School website: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skolakarlstejn.cz&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skolakarlstejn.cz&#x2F;</a><p>Better pics can be found easily.<p>It&#x27;s quite rare for a language to remain close enough to be intelligible.<p>English is a mongrel, with influences from old French and ancient Saxon and Norse and Celtic. Every few centuries you go back, you strip away whole layers of additional vocabulary left by the descendants of successive invasions.
      • DonaldFisk3 hours ago
        Anglo-Saxon + Norman French + Latin + Greek. Surprisingly few words from Celtic languages.
    • abanana3 hours ago
      That&#x27;s because we&#x27;re fed the massively oversimplified idea that English was one language, spoken all over the UK, and developing in a single straight line from Old English, to Middle English, to modern English.<p>It&#x27;s obvious that today&#x27;s connected society - leading to any single language being very widespread for mutual intelligibility - bears no resemblance to the way things were many centuries ago. But we&#x27;re conditioned to think in terms of our own experience until we <i>really</i> think about it or have it pointed out. Back then, the UK was split into many different dialects, largely consolidated later by the use of the printing press. Those dialects had so much difference in some ways, that snippets of them could sound like related-but-different languages.<p>(And there&#x27;s very little relative difference between modern English and &quot;middle English&quot;, which is easy for us to read, notwithstanding differences in the not-yet-standardised spelling.)<p>And most importantly, across history, the literary language has always been the language of the elites, the ruling class, which is often not the same language spoken by the plebs. Since the language they spoke is therefore missing from the historical record, it&#x27;s sometimes open to interpretation and guesswork. Many historical linguists try to make it known that middle-to-modern English can&#x27;t have come directly from the dialect of Anglo-Saxon we now call Old English, but overturning (or even clarifying) dogma from the early days of any field, against years of written encyclopedias, is very difficult.
  • dboreham10 hours ago
    Article could benefit from some editing: the poem is from variously the 7th, 8th and 9th centuries! After reading a few times I get that one date is the supposed composition date, the second is the publication date of Beade, and the last is the date of transcription for the copy in Rome.
    • kitd9 hours ago
      Yeah, that threw me as well.<p>Also worth pointing out that the Old English version at each of those dates probably varied quite a bit. This was the time period over which Old English was being influenced by external factors such as Norse and Latin.
  • satisfice7 hours ago
    I bet it starts &quot;Roses are red, violets are blue...&quot;
    • bregma6 hours ago
      &quot;Thaer whunce waes e mann fromm Nantucket....&quot;
      • lproven3 hours ago
        My favourite is perfectly clean and SFW.<p>There was a Bohemian monk<p>Who went to bed in a bunk<p>He dreamt that Venus<p>Was sucking his elbow<p>And woke up all covered in perspiration.
  • makeryi4118 hours ago
    [flagged]