17 comments

  • testemailfordg24 hours ago
    Funded by the Institute for Scientific Information on Coffee (ISIC) — an industry body — which is a notable conflict of interest the authors disclose but don't extensively discuss
    • rapidaneurism4 hours ago
      It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:<p>Behaviourally, coffee drinkers exhibited greater impulsivity and emotional reactivity, whereas non-coffee drinkers demonstrated better memory performance.
      • selcuka3 hours ago
        &gt; It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:<p>Who said anything about big coffee? These guys might be a secret, anti-coffee organisation. &#x2F;s
        • fedeb953 hours ago
          it&#x27;s the barley cartel.
      • iammjm3 hours ago
        Do they though? Any data on that? Also, the highly caffeinated people might also be sleep deprived, which impacts memory and emotional regulation
        • Antibabelic3 hours ago
          The data is in the linked paper. It&#x27;s a direct quote from the abstract.
        • oharapj1 hour ago
          Please delete this comment. It’s embarrassing
          • baxtr1 hour ago
            Maybe he forgot?
    • carabiner4 hours ago
      Every damn time, for chocolate, coffee, and red wine &quot;studies.&quot;
  • TazeTSchnitzel4 hours ago
    After habitually consuming caffeine (not in coffee form) daily, usually multiple times a day, for more than a decade, a horrible mental health incident happened to me that forced me to stop it for a while. Afterwards I didn&#x27;t resume the habit, and so I no longer have a tolerance.<p>This has let me evaluate what caffeine does with fresh eyes, so to say, because I can now consume it occasionally while having many non-caffeinated days to compare to. It&#x27;s a profoundly psychoactive substance and does a lot of things to cognition. I guess I have decided I don&#x27;t enjoy how it feels, having previously been dependent on it.
    • BatteryMountain2 hours ago
      I&#x27;ve had the same experience. Caffeine is super addicting, the ritual &amp; habits surrounding it is a potent pull. For myself, it makes me erratic, impulsive, more reactive and agitated. One cup a day puts me on edge, makes me sweat more, makes me more intolerant, makes everything feel too slow. It such a sneaky drug and it can really get under your skin without you realizing how much it changes you.
      • orphea57 minutes ago
        I don&#x27;t have the same experience, and I drink one cup of coffee (270 ml) almost every day. No agitation, no impulsiveness. I can drink coffee in late evening (let&#x27;s say 8 pm) and sleep well. I guess I&#x27;m trying to say that we should not project our own experience on others, everyone is different.
        • Sammi9 minutes ago
          You have no baseline to compare to.
    • bayarearefugee1 hour ago
      Quitting caffeine after decades of use was a bit of a mixed bag for me in the short term, but positive in the long term.<p>Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings for high carbs and sugar now, presumably this is related to the impulsivity impact talked about in the paper.<p>Going caffeine-free also made me very depressed for a while with severe anhedonia, this lasted way longer (like 3-4 months) than one would generally expect for caffeine withdrawal symptoms.<p>I had seemingly become so used to the increased dopamine signaling while buzzed on caffeine that my brain was a mess for a rather extended period of time as it got used to not having it.<p>Overall I view quitting as a positive for me, but I&#x27;d warn anyone thinking about doing it to do it carefully and closely monitor their mental health. AFAIK the impacts of quitting can be quite different for different people, so my experience may differ than that of others, but I had no idea how much of a (temporary) mental health crash quitting caffeine could cause until I experienced it.
      • gabriel-uribe1 hour ago
        I&#x27;m almost exactly 1 year coffee-free (not caffeine free, but significantly less because tea is much less addictive for me).<p>Also positive in the long-term for me. Fewer digestive issues, less spiky dopamine sensitive or impulsiveness and performance during the day, better memory. I wish it weren&#x27;t so.<p>But damn was the 3-6 months of anhedonia awful. I still feel pangs of it.
    • yetihehe29 minutes ago
      After habitually consuming coffee daily in large quantities for two decades, I had mental health incident, during which I drank twice the amount of coffee and it felt like water. After that incident I still drink previous amount of coffee, but feel much better, much more rested, on an upward trajectory and like I have finally managed to escape the swamp I dragged myself into over many years.<p>After reevaluating your comment and my experience I declare that coffee is not always a cause of mental health incidents, sometimes it might help people.
    • apples_oranges2 hours ago
      Agree, I drink it a lot and then stop drinking it at least once a year for a few weeks, and for sure it&#x27;s a different mode of mind, but can&#x27;t really qualify it besides that I remember my thinking being softer, calmer and perhaps even &quot;more correct&quot; without coffee.<p>(But I never had any mental-health incidents, and I drink a lot of it, more than all people that I personally know.)
      • yetihehe24 minutes ago
        For many years I go to the same vacation spot (kayaking in the most beautiful nature place I have seen) and go cold-turkey. I didn&#x27;t notice any side effects of lack of coffee besides slower muddier thinking. After I go back and start drinking coffee, feel back to normal.<p>I also had a very big life altering mental health incident very recently, drank A LOT of coffee during and I feel it helped, now I am much more calm, &quot;more correct&quot; despite drinking coffee like before.<p>Based on this I posit that coffee is used by humans to offset unwanted mentality changes, not a cause of unwanted mentality changes.
    • barrenko2 hours ago
      Coffee is a plant demon that created the western civilization as we know it today...
      • fermiNitambh1 hour ago
        I like this worldview. Prior to coffee, Europe was in the grip of the beer dwarves. Coffee demons took over and invented nationalism, capitalism and Keynesian economics.
    • readthenotes13 hours ago
      Notably, the article is looking at coffee, both caffeinated and decaffeinated. There is a lot more to coffee than just caffeine...
      • mixedCase3 hours ago
        The overwhelming majority of the enjoyable coffee experiences are caffeinated. While there is good decaf out there it&#x27;s not the norm, specially in smaller markets.
        • tsimionescu1 hour ago
          I think they meant that coffee contains a lot of other compounds than just caffeine, which something like energy drinks or teas will not include. So you can&#x27;t necessarily extend conclusions from a study on consumption of coffee to effects that other drinks that happen to include caffeine might have.<p>Edit: this is especially relevant here, as the study found similar effects in decaffeinated coffee drinkers. So the effects they observed, if real, are not related to caffeine.
    • kakacik1 hour ago
      I do believe a lot of it boils down to tolerance. I for example feel basically 0 effects, and drink it just because I like the taste (of a good one with milk, or exceptionally some good espresso &#x2F; ristretto after big dinner).<p>I recently traveled and didn&#x27;t have coffee for more than a week. No change I could feel, no craving, nothing. But one of my ex-gf was quite sensitive on many things, had frequent headaches, low blood pressure and coffee was helping with those visibly. So YMMV.
    • rimliu3 hours ago
      How do you know that caffeine was the cause?
      • ivan_gammel3 hours ago
        This of course cannot be generalized, but withdrawal is quite noticeable for personal well-being in a positive way.
  • fedeb952 hours ago
    thirty-one participants were moderate coffee-drinkers (CD, i.e., people that usually consume between 3 to 5 cups of coffee per day).<p>3-5 is moderate? To me, 3 is already high.<p>Also, sample size is pretty low and they&#x27;re all Irish.
    • p4bl01 hour ago
      I agree. I&#x27;m deep into specialty coffee and I love making and drinking coffee <i>a lot</i>, but three cups is already higher than what I drink on a normal day. Also, most of the time when I go above this threshold, I drink decaf.
    • kristofferR45 minutes ago
      This study is Irish, so I think they likely use 170ml cups? That means a normal mug of ~500ml is 3 cups.<p>Perhaps they even use US coffee cup size, which is 118ml?<p>Honestly, using an unit of measurement that varies from 118ml to 250ml in a scientific paper brings the whole paper into question.
      • ashirviskas1 minute ago
        Does it matter what size the cup is? Usually you get the same amount of coffee water + additional water&#x2F;milk&#x2F;whatever.
      • skrebbel27 minutes ago
        &gt; a normal mug of ~500ml<p>woa where is half a liter of coffee a &quot;normal&quot; portion?
      • hootz21 minutes ago
        Okay, you&#x27;ll definitely have to explain the NORMAL mug of HALF A LITER!
      • finghin29 minutes ago
        I’m Irish.<p>A NORMAL mug of 500ml??? this is insanity to me
    • midtake1 hour ago
      Are the Irish unique when it comes to metabolizing coffee?
    • alexey-salmin2 hours ago
      I do 6-10 espresso cups per day, so 3-5 does sound very moderate.
      • andor1 hour ago
        It depends on how much caffeine is in your cup. Rather than measuring the size of a cup, I would go by the amount of coffee, as in the weight of the beans, used to brew it. The actual amount of caffeine is not as easy to measure, and even for the same kind of beans, there is natural variation.<p>For a traditional Italian espresso, about 7g of coffee beans are extracted. For a third-wave double espresso, it&#x27;s usually 18g or more.<p>In my opinion, 10x7g is a lot. 2x12g is more than enough for me.
        • Edd31415936 minutes ago
          There is no realistic scenario where, no matter your extractions or bean selections, 6-10 shots of espresso a day is not an enormous amount of caffeine
        • askvictor50 minutes ago
          caffeine extraction is largely a function of time in contact with water. Espresso is quite quick brew, so has less caffeine than other brewing methods (yes, there are plenty of other factors)
      • MagicMoonlight1 hour ago
        That’s not normal. It’s like saying “I drink 6-10 beers a day so 3-5 is very moderate”
  • arnejenssen19 minutes ago
    I am not a coffee drinker, but I met with a friend at a cafe who said he was going to get a cup of insect poison, referring to coffee :)
  • pinkmuffinere5 hours ago
    I’m super interested in this sort of study! However, it looks like n=62 here, which I think weakens the results —they’re probably just useful as suggestions of possible effects. Also, any food is expected to have similar effects on the microbiome. They didn’t test caffeine in isolation. In some ways that’s better (I don’t consume caffeine in isolation), but in some ways that’s less useful (it’s possible you get similar results from many random vegetables)
    • sixtyj5 hours ago
      In 1995, NASA did spiders experiment. Caffeine is a siginificant impulsivity trigger. :)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rarehistoricalphotos.com&#x2F;nasa-spiders-drugs-experiment&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rarehistoricalphotos.com&#x2F;nasa-spiders-drugs-experime...</a>
      • ButlerianJihad12 minutes ago
        Warning: those photos in the dot-com website are negative images, not the original black-on-white. Lousy with animated ad banners, too.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ntrs.nasa.gov&#x2F;api&#x2F;citations&#x2F;20100033433&#x2F;downloads&#x2F;20100033433.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ntrs.nasa.gov&#x2F;api&#x2F;citations&#x2F;20100033433&#x2F;downloads&#x2F;20...</a><p>Don&#x27;t ask me why some blogger posted the PDF in 2013, and also don&#x27;t ask me how English Wikipedia editors determined that a Wordpress blog is a &quot;Reliable Secondary Source&quot;. I did locate the original on NASA&#x27;s own website. Public Domain (USGov).
      • ivell3 hours ago
        LSD has unconnected strands in the air. I guess this is expected.
        • dotancohen2 hours ago
          The LSD and sleeping pills were not in the original study I believe. That might be an artists representation of the image at the bottom of the original study, which I remember showed the results in a single row.
      • jayd164 hours ago
        Nice web, Mr. Crack spider.
    • bhaney5 hours ago
      &gt; They didn’t test caffeine in isolation<p>But they did test both caffeinated and uncaffeinated coffee, and found the same effects in both, indicating that the effect is caused by something in coffee <i>other than</i> the caffeine
      • krige5 hours ago
        Doesn&#x27;t decaf also contain caffeine, just a lot less of it?
      • anon848736284 hours ago
        Typical extraction yield is 18-20%. For a 20g dose that&#x27;s 4g of material consumed, or about 30 individual beans.<p>I wonder if you could find similar effects with 4g or broccoli sprouts, or garlic, or ginger, or cumin seed, shiitake mushroom, seaweed, soursop leaf, or...
  • satvikpendem5 hours ago
    What&#x27;s cool is this effect exists even in decaf coffee, as someone who primarily drinks decaf black, for flavor and for a good night&#x27;s rest as I&#x27;m sensitive to caffeine.
    • Kelteseth4 hours ago
      What kind of decaf coffee do you drink? There are differences between the cheap chemical Methylene way to create decaf coffee and the expensive co2 way to get rid of the caffeine.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cleanlabelproject.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;CLP-Decaf-Coffee-White-Paper_3_2.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cleanlabelproject.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;CLP-Decaf-C...</a>
      • Schlagbohrer3 hours ago
        Is that methylene way even legal? It basically uses petroleum fuel in the process right? I assume it was outlawed a long time ago but that might be extreme naievete for US regulatory capability...
        • eichin2 hours ago
          <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedecafproject.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedecafproject.com&#x2F;</a> (Dec 2024) let you order matching swiss water, CO₂, and Ethyl Acetate (sugar cane byproduct) decaffeinated coffee from the same batches of beans. The EPA banned methylene chloride earlier in that year, but because of toxicity to workers, not because of risk from the resulting coffee itself (and it looks like the FDA didn&#x27;t ban it.) So I guess you couldn&#x27;t make decaf with it in the US but you could probably still import and sell it?
      • satvikpendem4 hours ago
        I don&#x27;t buy the methylene processed ones, generally it&#x27;s Swiss water processed or like you said the CO2 processed ones.
  • ANarrativeApe3 hours ago
    It would have been interesting to see if there was any difference relating to CYP1A2 (Cytochrome P450 1A2), the fast metabolizers and the slow metabolizers.
  • reedf15 hours ago
    At least subjectively, coffee seems to help my memory. But maybe that&#x27;s why I started drinking coffee?<p>I would probably drop coffee it was proven to have negative effects on memory.
    • bboozzoo5 hours ago
      &gt; But maybe that&#x27;s why I started drinking coffee?<p>you don&#x27;t remember why, do you?
  • wjnc5 hours ago
    I have not much followed the science of gut microbiome and psychology. Is this really going where this article is pointing? That we can tease out causation in foods and habits via gut microbiome towards behavior and psychology? Pretty rad.
    • chneu5 hours ago
      There&#x27;s a decent amount of research going into the hormones that our GI biome produce and how it affects us. Our body has a few different biomes and they all seem to play somewhat important roles.
    • colechristensen5 hours ago
      Yeah there&#x27;s nontrivial evidence that among other things, the complex community living inside you manipulates your brain.
      • ButlerianJihad5 hours ago
        My psychiatrists agree that “hallucination” (in lay terms: “hearing voices” or “seeing things”) only refers to things that <i>aren’t real</i>.
  • getnormality5 hours ago
    Coffee modifies physiology and cognition? You&#x27;re telling me this for the first time.
    • alecco5 hours ago
      The paper is about previously unknown ways coffee affects the body.
    • ButlerianJihad5 hours ago
      I was so surprised at this headline that I nearly leapt out of my chair!
      • jonplackett4 hours ago
        But it says it’s the same for decaf. That is more interesting
        • aitchnyu3 hours ago
          Been treating coffee as caffeine with aroma. Any important points about coffee itself?
    • triage80045 hours ago
      Humans known since 45 minutes after first drink
  • shinryuu2 hours ago
    Would be real interesting to see a similar study on tea.
  • sdevonoes3 hours ago
    I must be weird, but coffee (or caffeine) doesn’t really “wake me up” in the mornings and I could drink it in the night and still sleep well. Because of that I don’t drink coffee; I prefer tea
    • opan43 minutes ago
      I find that the effects can be pretty subtle, and if I&#x27;m already tired there&#x27;s usually no coming back. What I think has worked best for me is to re-up on caffeine a few hours before I think I&#x27;ll be tired, or around when a previous dose is wearing off. Also, if trying to stay awake, food and entertainment are also quite important. If I hit a point where I&#x27;m hungry, cold, and tired, and going to the kitchen to eat sounds like a chore, it&#x27;s usually too late for me. When the bed&#x27;s closer, it&#x27;s hard to resist.<p>I&#x27;ve also noticed that I have a sort of natural energy in the morning. I think of it as being similar to how a seed has enough energy in itself to sprout and then get sunlight. It&#x27;s probably so I can make myself eat and whatnot. I don&#x27;t really need caffeine to &quot;wake up&quot; as much as I need it to stay awake later in the day, and even if I do have a coffee with breakfast, I&#x27;ll often get tired before the normal day is over.
    • vjerancrnjak2 hours ago
      I think this description is often associated with ADHD memes.<p>Falling asleep after a can of energy drink.
    • fedeb953 hours ago
      tea also has caffeine, although in smaller quantities. Maybe you mean that you don&#x27;t care so you go by taste, just specifying because there&#x27;s a common misconception about tea not having caffeine.
      • Lionga3 hours ago
        Some tea has caffeine, most has don&#x27;t.
        • pasquinelli2 hours ago
          all tea has caffeine unless it&#x27;s decaf. some things that aren&#x27;t tea are called tea casually, but they aren&#x27;t tea, for instance peppermint &quot;tea&quot; is not tea. by the same logic that one would call peppermint a tea, one would have to call coffee a tea. and beef broth.
          • majkinetor2 hours ago
            That depends on culture. All camelia s. teas have it (green etc) but almost none of common herbal teas in Europe have it (chamomile, menta, sage etc.) They are not called casually teas.
            • pasquinelli1 hour ago
              &gt; They are not called casually teas.<p>are you saying chamomile isn&#x27;t called tea but it&#x27;s one of the teas without caffeine? if so that&#x27;s very confused.<p>camelia sinensis is tea. when i said that other things are casually called tea, i mean that what chamomile tea, for example, ought to be called is a tisane or an herbal infusion. casually, people might call it a tea; some people are so casual about it that they think it actually is tea. but it isn&#x27;t.
  • xingyi_dev1 hour ago
    Whatever the case, a cup of coffee is basically what kickstarts my day.
  • therealdeal20202 hours ago
    good thing I have claude to summarize this and quickly realized that sample size was small and nothing much new unless you are a microbiome researcher
    • reliablereason1 hour ago
      If the effect size is big small sample sizes does not matter as much as otherwise.<p>You really have to look at the power analysis and the sample size together.<p>Saying this as a general truth. I am not sure about the power of the method in this papper, i only read the abstract.
  • poly2it5 hours ago
    &gt; ... reintroduction triggered acute microbiome changes independent of caffeine.<p>This sounds interesting. I&#x27;ve never really considered the constituents of coffee other than caffeine and what unique effects they may bring.<p>I wonder if I would experience behavioral effects if I replaced my coffee intake with caffeinated non-coffee drinks or pills?
    • kulahan5 hours ago
      Studies seem to indicate that coffee is at least as healthy, if not healthier than tea, and I have not heard this about caffeine specifically (aka the same effects coming from pills or energy drinks).<p>One fun fact: we still haven’t figured out why coffee makes us poop. We’ve studied every chemical in there and can’t seem to find a link, but the association is uh… well-known.
      • hermitcrab2 hours ago
        &gt;why coffee makes us poop.<p>That seems to vary wildly between individuals. It doesn&#x27;t have that effect on me.
  • neya5 hours ago
    The only good thing that keeps me from collapsing into a state of limbo is coffee and now, even that&#x27;s bad (seems more like a mixed bag, but still)? Sigh.
    • anon848736284 hours ago
      Don&#x27;t fret. You&#x27;re allowed to enjoy things that aren&#x27;t part of the scientific reductionist longevity influencer lifestyle fad :)
      • antonvs4 hours ago
        Nitpick: What you’re referring to is not scientific.
    • bee_rider5 hours ago
      There have been positive and negative reports for a long long time. If coffee was going to kill us, I’d certainly have died in school!
    • cyberpunk4 hours ago
      Maybe I have some neurological issue or something but whenever I quit coffee I find it extremely difficult to maintain any kind of motivation to sit in an open plan office and code. Coffee makes me a worker bee, I can understand why employers give it away for free.<p>So, the coffee stays for now.
      • neya4 hours ago
        Yeah, exactly. I can totally relate to this. I have actually monitored my productivity on an excel sheet and the days with coffee win by a large margin. I am not sure if it&#x27;s withdrawal symptoms on the days without, though.
    • kulahan5 hours ago
      Coffee in general is unreasonably healthy as a beverage. The overwhelming majority of science agrees it’s a quality health drink.
    • hermitcrab2 hours ago
      Relax. Tomorrow there will be a paper&#x2F;article saying coffee is great for you.
    • fransje262 hours ago
      Did you know:<p><pre><code> By replacing your morning coffee with herbal tea, you can remove up to 87% of the little joy you still have left in your life. &#x2F;s </code></pre> Keep the coffee buddy.
      • neya11 minutes ago
        Haha, that was a funny quote!
  • 6LLvveMx2koXfwn5 hours ago
    &quot;These findings reveal previously unrecognised effects of coffee on the microbiota–gut–brain axis, suggesting that microbiome profiles could potentially predict coffee consumption patterns&quot;, or, perhaps, just ask the patient?
    • raincole5 hours ago
      Could you elaborate on how to interpret your comment without it leading to anti-intellectualism?
    • colechristensen5 hours ago
      You are missing the point.<p>If you can predict someone&#x27;s coffee intake based on testing of their microbiome then you&#x27;ve proven that coffee intake has predictable effects on the microbiome.<p>The important part isn&#x27;t predicting coffee use, it&#x27;s just the proof that there&#x27;s you can predict and perhaps control in the opposite direction leading to more research.