5 comments

  • WarmWash1 hour ago
    I don&#x27;t know what chemistry exactly these cells are using, but in sodium-ion batteries, prussian blue analogs as they are called are common anode materials. Overcharging these cells can lead to a release of hydrogen cyanide gas, notoriously known as Zyklon B.<p>It has damped my enthusiasm for perusing it as a potential future home energy storage solution.
    • hunterpayne1 minute ago
      Its metallic sodium. Its about 30 times more volatile than Lithium. We don&#x27;t use metallic sodium for almost anything industrial because of this volatility. I assumed there would be some mixed Li-Na-ion batteries. A pure Na-ion battery is an explosive waiting to go off. Putting these in a car...seems rather like a poor choice unless you are a personal injury lawyer.
    • cyberax57 minutes ago
      Just wait until you find out about hydrogen sulfide from overcharged car batteries.<p>Also, I think HCN can be scrubbed by adding a special absorptive cap onto the battery.
      • UncleOxidant28 minutes ago
        Or you could just have the batteries in a separate enclosure away from your house. I think I would be inclined to do this anyway, certainly for Lithium batteries given the possibility of fire.
      • devwastaken35 minutes ago
        hydrogen sulfide is not anywhere in the same category. When you consider failure you have to consider what is the most catastrophic possibility and if that is “this battery silently kills people” then you dont make it.
        • wat1000017 minutes ago
          We pipe methane into millions of homes. I don&#x27;t think &quot;this can silently kill people in the worst case&quot; is enough to block something.
          • zdragnar0 minutes ago
            We also have to adulterate that methane with bitter smelling agents too warn people of the danger when there&#x27;s a leak. The line into the house is also limited by a regulator to ensure the pressure is very low. If gas builds up in a battery, it&#x27;s either going to leak out slowly or build up and leak out all at once.<p>Very much not an equal comparison.
        • cyberax23 minutes ago
          &gt; hydrogen sulfide is not anywhere in the same category.<p>It has the same LD50 dose as HCN. It literally _is_ just as bad. It routinely kills people on oil rigs because in lethal concentrations it immediately shuts off your nose.<p>How often do you hear about people getting poisoned by it from lead-acid batteries?
          • zdragnar4 minutes ago
            The only people with any significant amount of lead acid batteries on their property are off grid types who typically store them away from their primary domicile as a fire safety precaution.<p>Fast charging a car&#x2F;chemical weapon in your garage isn&#x27;t terribly appealing.
  • Grimblewald2 hours ago
    BYD &#x2F; Denza z9 gt claim 10-70% in 5 mins, 97% in 9 mins. With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results? I don&#x27;t know enough about this space to know if I am missing something here, but would love to know because something about this feels more exciting than i think i am grasping. anyone know?
    • mbesto31 minutes ago
      &gt; With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results<p>The 1000km range likely has more to do with the efficiency of the drivetrain and the aerodynamics of the car more than the battery tech. kWh is an absolute value that is fungible and the Denza has a 122.5 kWh battery pack, which means its getting 5mi&#x2F;kWh. For perspective my Rivian R1S gets ~350 miles on a 135 kWh pack which is about 2.5mi&#x2F;kWh (so about half that)<p>The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight. Sodium batteries are typically much heavier than Li-on. I believe the Denza uses LFP, which means it&#x27;s likely somewhere else on the car that they&#x27;re gaining improvement in the range - not from the battery tech. That being said, the battery tech definitely affects the charge&#x2F;discharge rates.
    • MisterTea1 hour ago
      I see no charge rate numbers so there is no way to compare. however, these sodium batteries are cheaper, do not require lithium, and are operable at lower temperatures of -20C&#x2F;-4F. Sounds like a bit of a win and opens the door for battery options in cars.
      • _aavaa_1 hour ago
        And the fire safety risks are significantly reduced (thermal runaway is much harder). They can also be transported and stored completely discharged, something not done with lithium ion batteries because of it degrades them much more than regular usage.
      • adrian_b1 hour ago
        The sodium-ion batteries are said to work satisfactorily down to -40 Celsius = -40 Fahrenheit.<p>-20 Celsius just happens to be a temperature for which a retention ratio was specified in the parent article, and not the limit of the operation range.
    • IneffablePigeon1 hour ago
      This article is about a sodium-ion battery which is a different chemistry to the one BYD claimed those results on (that was LFP).<p>Sodium-ion is exciting because it has the potential to have less degradation over time, much less sensitivity to cold and less reliance on rare earth metals. Could also end up significantly cheaper. However it has struggled to reach the same energy densities and so hasn’t been practical thus far.<p>This seems like a big step towards it being a practical technology choice for certain models, if it bears out.
    • cbg01 hour ago
      The range claims depend on the size of the battery pack. The Denza has a larger pack than what is quoted in the article. Also, the Chinese CLTC range ratings are overly optimistic with 1000km CLTC being ~820km WLTP or ~700km EPA.
  • thescriptkiddie8 minutes ago
    note that the quoted 170Wh&#x2F;kg is about the same as currently available LiFePO4 cells and half that of the best available NMC cells
  • cyberax1 hour ago
    Just remember, the US Na-Ion battery startup died last year with _products_ _in_ _warehouses_ just because it couldn&#x27;t get a UL certification. All it needed was a bridge loan.<p>And the government did nothing.
    • trynumber927 minutes ago
      &gt;And the government did nothing.<p>Why didn&#x27;t a private investment company, even venture capital, extend them a bridge loan? It seems like the type of technology that could have decent returns in licensing fees.<p>I ask this question because it seems odd to someone in the software world so flooded with startups that the <i>government</i> would be expected to intercede on behalf of a startup.
      • cyberax15 minutes ago
        Apparently, there were shenanigans from investors&#x2F;creditors. So the company got quietly carved up instead of going through a bankruptcy auction.<p>I&#x27;m looking forward to the eventual investigational report.<p>BTW, the company was Natron Energy.
      • wat1000011 minutes ago
        Decent returns aren&#x27;t enough for a risky investment, they need to be spectacular returns.<p>The benefit to the country as a whole is potentially large, but most of it wouldn&#x27;t show up as profit for the company itself. I&#x27;m sure it would do quite well if it was successful, but the benefits to car manufacturers and to having this sort of technology on-shore would not translate into monetary returns on private investment. That&#x27;s the sort of thing government intervention is good for.
    • simmerup7 minutes ago
      Think not,&#x27;what can my country do for me?&#x27;, but, &#x27;How can I further enrich Trump&#x27;
    • iugtmkbdfil83444 minutes ago
      One could argue that in that case, doing nothing was very much a choice.
      • joe_mamba39 minutes ago
        &quot;Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake&quot;
    • btheunissen49 minutes ago
      Starting to think that the American century of humiliation meme was prophetic.
  • readthenotes11 hour ago
    Another better battery bulletin