28 comments

  • sosodev16 hours ago
    I really hope this doesn&#x27;t hinder development too much. As Simon says, Qwen3.5 is very impressive.<p>I&#x27;ve been testing Qwen3.5-35B-A3B over the past couple of days and it&#x27;s a very impressive model. It&#x27;s the most capable agentic coding model I&#x27;ve tested at that size by far. I&#x27;ve had it writing Rust and Elixir via the Pi harness and found that it&#x27;s very capable of handling well defined tasks with minimal steering from me. I tell it to write tests and it writes sane ones ensuring they pass without cheating. It handles the loop of responding to test and compiler errors while pushing towards its goal very well.
    • misnome15 hours ago
      I&#x27;ve been playing with 3.5:122b on a GH200 the past few days for rust&#x2F;react&#x2F;ts, and while it&#x27;s clearly sub-Sonnet, with tight descriptions it can get small-medium tasks done OK - as well as Sonnet if the scope is small.<p>The main quirk I&#x27;ve found is that it has a tendency to decide halfway through following my detailed instructions that it would be &quot;simpler&quot; to just... not do what I asked, and I find it has stripped all the preliminary support infrastructure for the new feature out of the code.
      • sheepscreek13 hours ago
        That sounds awfully similar to what Opus 4.6 does on my tasks sometimes.<p>&gt; Blah blah blah (second guesses its own reasoning half a dozen times then goes). Actually, it would be a simpler to just ...<p>Specifically on Antigravity, I&#x27;ve noticed it doing that trying to &quot;save time&quot; to stay within some artificial deadline.<p>It might have something to do with the system messages and the reinforcement&#x2F;realignment messages that are interwoven into the context (but never displayed to end-users) to keep the agents on task.
        • jtonz9 hours ago
          As someone that started using Co-work, I feel like I am going insane with the frequency that I have to keep telling it to stay on task.<p>If you ask it to do something laborious like review a bunch of websites for specific content it will constantly give up, providing you information on how you can continue the process yourself to save time. Its maddening.
          • zzrrt9 hours ago
            That’s pretty funny when compared with the rhetoric like “AI doesn’t get tired like humans.” No, it doesn’t, but it roleplays like it does. I guess there is too much reference to human concerns like fatigue and saving effort in the training.
            • martin-t8 hours ago
              This is what happens when a bunch of billionaires convince people autocomplete is AI.<p>Don&#x27;t get me wrong, it&#x27;s very good autocomplete and if you run it in a loop with good tooling around it, you can get interesting, even useful results. But by its nature it is still autocomplete and it <i>always</i> just predicts text. Specifically, text which is usually about humans and&#x2F;or by humans.
              • jrumbut5 hours ago
                Well the essence of software engineering is taking this complex real world tasks and breaking them down into simpler parts until they can be done by simple (conceptually) digital circuits.<p>So it&#x27;s not surprising that eventually autocomplete can reach up from those circuits and take on some tasks that have already been made simple enough.<p>I think what&#x27;s so interesting is how uneven that reach is. Some tasks it is better than at least 90% of devs and maybe even superhuman (which, in this case, I mean better than any single human. I&#x27;ve never seen an LLM do something that a small team couldn&#x27;t do better if given a reasonable amount of time). Other cases actual old school autocomplete might do a better job, the extra capabilities added up to negative value and its presence was a distraction.<p>Sometimes there is an obvious reason why (solving a problem with lots of example solution online vs working with poorly documented proprietary technologies), but other times there isn&#x27;t. They certainly have raised the floor somewhat, but the peaks and valleys remain enormous which is interesting.<p>To me that implies there is both lots of untapped potential and challenges the LLM developers have not even begun to face.
              • selcuka6 hours ago
                You are not wrong, but after having started working with LLMs, I have this feeling that many humans are simply autocomplete engines too. So LLMs <i>might be</i> actually close to AGI, if you define &quot;general&quot; as &quot;more than 50% of the population&quot;.
              • root_axis7 hours ago
                Yep. The veil of coherence extends convincingly far by means of absurd statistical power, but the artifacts of next token prediction become far more obvious when you&#x27;re running models that can work on commodity hardware
          • shinycode1 hour ago
            If found it better to split in smaller tasks from a first overall analysis and make it do only that subtask and make it give me the next prompt once finished (or feed that to a system of agents). There is a real threshold from where quality would be lost.
          • bandrami8 hours ago
            It really <i>is</i> like having an intern, then
          • throwup2389 hours ago
            In my experience all of the models do that. It&#x27;s one of the most infuriating things about using them, especially when I spend hours putting together a massive spec&#x2F;implementation plan and then have to sit there babysitting it going &quot;are you sure phase 1 is done?&quot; and &quot;continue to phase 2&quot;<p>I tend to work on things where there is a massive amount of code to write but once the architecture is laid down, it&#x27;s just mechanical work, so this behavior is particularly frustrating.
            • dripdry453 hours ago
              I hope you will excuse my ignorance on this subject, so as a learning question for me: is it possible to add what you put there as an absolute condition, that all available functions and data are present as an overarching mandate, and it’s simply plug and chug?
              • elcritch1 hour ago
                Recently it seems that even if you add those conditions the LLMs will tend to ignore them. So you have to repeatedly prompt them. Sometimes string or emphatic language will help them keep it “in mind”.
                • girvo55 minutes ago
                  Glad it&#x27;s not just me then, it&#x27;s been driving me slightly batty.
          • beepbooptheory3 hours ago
            Why keep using it then? I simply still read websites. It&#x27;s not always great but sounds better than whatever that weird dynamic is!
        • wood_spirit13 hours ago
          Yeah that happened to me with Claude code opus 4.6 1M for the first time today. I had to check the model hadn’t changed. It was weird. I was imagining that maybe anthropic have a way of deciding how much resource a user actually gets and they had downgraded me suddenly or something.
          • e1g12 hours ago
            Claude Code recently downgraded the default thinking level to “medium”, so it’s worth checking your settings.
            • joecool10291 hour ago
              recently being within the past 24 hours lol: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;anthropics&#x2F;claude-code&#x2F;releases&#x2F;tag&#x2F;v2.1.68" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;anthropics&#x2F;claude-code&#x2F;releases&#x2F;tag&#x2F;v2.1....</a>
              • darkwater1 hour ago
                &gt; Re-introduced the &quot;ultrathink&quot; keyword to enable high effort for the next tur<p>Doh.
            • nekitamo9 hours ago
              Thank you. The difference was quite noticeable today.
            • wood_spirit2 hours ago
              Thank you thank you you give me hope :)<p>But how do you see the current thinking level and how do you change it? I’ve been clicking around and searching and adding “effortLevel”:”high” to .claude&#x2F;settings.json but no idea if this actually has any effect etc.
              • varshar5 minutes ago
                As per Anthropic support (for Mac and Linux respectively) -<p>echo &#x27;export ANTHROPIC_EFFORT=&quot;high&quot;&#x27; &gt;&gt; ~&#x2F;.zshrc source ~&#x2F;.zshrc<p>echo &#x27;export ANTHROPIC_EFFORT=&quot;high&quot;&#x27; &gt;&gt; ~&#x2F;.bashrc source ~&#x2F;.bashrc
      • storus12 hours ago
        &gt; to decide halfway through following my detailed instructions that it would be &quot;simpler&quot; to just... not do what I asked<p>That&#x27;s likely coming from the 3:1 ratio of linear to quadratic attention usage. The latest DeepSeek also suffers from it which the original R1 never exhibited.
        • nl2 hours ago
          There is no way you can diagnose this like that. Correlation isn&#x27;t causation and much more likely is a common source of reinforcement training data.
      • shaan713 hours ago
        &gt; that it would be &quot;simpler&quot; to just... not do what I asked<p>That sounds too close to what I feel on some days xD
      • reactordev14 hours ago
        Turn down the temperature and you’ll see less “simpler” short cuts.
        • smokel13 hours ago
          For the uninitiated: Interestingly, it is not advisable to take this to the extreme and set temperature to 0.<p>That would seem logical, as the results are then completely deterministic, but it turns out that a suboptimal token may result in a better answer in the long run. Also, allowing for a little bit of noise gives the model room to talk itself out of a suboptimal path.
          • LoganDark12 hours ago
            I like to think of this like tempering the output space. With a temperature of zero, there is only one possible output and it may be completely wrong. With even a low temperature, you drastically increase the chances that the output space contains a correct answer, through containing multiple responses rather than only one.<p>I wonder if determinism will be less harmful to diffusion models because they perform multiple iterations over the response rather than having only a single shot at each position that lacks lookahead. I&#x27;m looking forward to finding out and have been playing with a diffusion model locally for a few days.
            • reactordev11 hours ago
              Yup. I think of it as how off the rails do you want to explore?<p>For creative things or exploratory reasoning, a temperature of 0.8 lends us to all sorts of excursions down the rabbit hole. However, when coding and needing something precise, a temperature of 0.2 is what I use. If I don’t like the output, I’ll rephrase or add context.
      • slices10 hours ago
        I&#x27;ve seen behavior like that when the model wasn&#x27;t being served with sufficiently sized context window
      • Aurornis11 hours ago
        &gt; The main quirk I&#x27;ve found is that it has a tendency to decide halfway through following my detailed instructions that it would be &quot;simpler&quot; to just... not do what I asked,<p>This is my experience with the Qwen3-Next and Qwen3.5 models, too.<p>I can prompt with strict instructions saying &quot;** DO NOT...&quot; and it follows them for a few iterations. Then it has a realization that it would be simpler to just do the thing I told it not to do, which leads it to the dead end I was trying to avoid.
    • Twirrim16 hours ago
      I&#x27;ve been testing the same with some rust, and it&#x27;s has spent a fair bit of time going through an infinite seeming loop before finally unjamming itself. It seems a little more likely to jam up than some other models I&#x27;ve experimented with.<p>It&#x27;s also driving itself crazy with deadpool &amp; deadpool-r2d2 that it chose during planning phase.<p>That said, it does seem to be doing a very good job in general, the code it has created is mostly sane other than this fuss over the database layer, which I suspect I&#x27;ll have to intervene on. It&#x27;s certainly doing a better job than other models I&#x27;m able to self-host so far.
      • Aurornis15 hours ago
        &gt; it&#x27;s has spent a fair bit of time going through an infinite seeming loop before finally unjamming itself.<p>I think this is part of the model’s success. It’s cheap enough that we’re all willing to let it run for extremely long times. It takes advantage of that by being tenacious. In my experience it will just keep trying things relentlessly until eventually something works.<p>The downside is that it’s more likely to arrive at a solution that solves the problem I asked but does it in a terribly hacky way. It reminds me of some of the junior devs I’ve worked with who trial and error their way into tests passing.<p>I frequently have to reset it and start it over with extra guidance. It’s not going to be touching any of my serious projects for these reasons but it’s fun to play with on the side.
      • sosodev15 hours ago
        Some of the early quants had issues with tool calling and looping. So you might want to check that you&#x27;re running the latest version &#x2F; recommended settings.
      • misnome14 hours ago
        &gt; and it&#x27;s has spent a fair bit of time going through an infinite seeming loop before finally unjamming itself<p>I can live with this on my own hardware. Where Opus4.6 has developed this tendency to where it will happily chew through the entire 5-hour allowance on the first instruction going in endless circles. I’ve stopped using it for anything except the extreme planning now.
      • cbm-vic-2013 hours ago
        I don&#x27;t know much about how these models are trained, but is this behavior intentional (ie, the people pulling the levers knew that this is how it would end up), or is it emergent (ie, pulling the levers to see what happens)?
    • abhikul015 hours ago
      Are you running it locally with llama.cpp? If so, is it working without any tweaking of the chat template? The tool calls fail for me when using the default chat template, however it seems to work a whole lot better with this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;Qwen&#x2F;Qwen3.5-35B-A3B&#x2F;discussions&#x2F;9#699f8e8d16fcfc9bb99aa77f" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;Qwen&#x2F;Qwen3.5-35B-A3B&#x2F;discussions&#x2F;9#69...</a>
      • sosodev7 hours ago
        I’ve been running it via llama-server with no issues. Running the latest Bartowski 6-bit quant
        • abhikul03 hours ago
          Thanks, i&#x27;ll check his quants.
        • brightball6 hours ago
          Bartowski? Like Chuck Bartowski from the TV show?
          • BoredomIsFun45 minutes ago
            Different one. Bartowski is a minor celebrity in the local LLM world, together with Unsloth.
      • arcanemachiner15 hours ago
        Have you tried the &#x27;--jinja&#x27; flag in llama-server?
        • abhikul014 hours ago
          Yes, it fails too. I’m using the unsloth q4_km quant. Similarly fails with devstral2 small too, fixed that by using a similar template i found for it. Maybe it’s the quants that are broken, need to redownload I guess.
    • anana_13 hours ago
      I&#x27;ve had even better results using the dense 27B model -- less looping and churning on problems
      • androiddrew9 hours ago
        Which dense model are you referring to? The dense model isn’t finetuned for code instruction according to the model card.
        • anana_7 hours ago
          <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;Qwen&#x2F;Qwen3.5-27B" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;Qwen&#x2F;Qwen3.5-27B</a><p>I wasn&#x27;t aware of that, which page mentions that?
          • zerebos3 hours ago
            Yeah the page you linked even shows the benchmarks in coding for this model, so I&#x27;d be curious where that claim comes from
    • nu11ptr15 hours ago
      What hardware do you have it running on? Do you feel you could replace the frontier models with it for everyday coding? Would&#x2F;will you?
      • sosodev12 hours ago
        Around 20ish tokens a second with 6-bit quant at very long context lengths on my AMD AI Max 395+<p>I’m trying to use local models whenever possible. Still need to lean on the frontier models sometimes.
      • politelemon14 hours ago
        60 to 70 on a 5080, but only tinkering for now. The smaller models seem exceptionally good for what they are, and some can even do OCR reliably.
      • bigyabai15 hours ago
        I&#x27;m getting ~30 tok&#x2F;s on the A3B model with my 3070 Ti and 32k context.<p>&gt; Do you feel you could replace the frontier models with it for everyday coding? Would&#x2F;will you?<p>Probably not yet, but it&#x27;s really good at composing shell commands. For scripting or one-liner generation, the A3B is really good. The web development skills are markedly better than Qwen&#x27;s prior models in this parameter range, too.
    • paoliniluis16 hours ago
      what&#x27;s your take between Qwen3.5-35B-A3B and Qwen3-Coder-Next?
      • nekitamo53 minutes ago
        In my tests, Qwen3.5-35B-A3B is better, there is no comparison. Better tool calling and reasoning than Qwen3-Coder-Next for Html&#x2F;Js coding tasks of medium size. Beware the quants and llama.cpp settings, they matter a lot and you have to try out a bunch of different quants to find one with acceptable settings, depending on your hardware.
      • sosodev16 hours ago
        In my experience Qwen3.5 is better even at smaller distillations. From what I understand the Qwen3-next series of models was just a test&#x2F;preview of the architectural changes underpinning Qwen3.5. So Qwen3.5 is a more complete and well trained version of those models.
      • kamranjon16 hours ago
        In my experience qwen 3 coder next is better. I ran quite a few tests yesterday and it was much better at utilizing tool calls properly and understanding complex code. For its size though 3.5 35B was very impressive. coder next is an 80b model so i think its just a size thing - also for whatever reason coder next is faster on my machine. Only model that is competitive in speed is GLM 4.7 flash
        • xrd16 hours ago
          What do you use as the orchestrator? By this I mean opencode, or the like. Is that the right term?
          • simonw15 hours ago
            I use the term &quot;harness&quot; for those - or just &quot;coding agent&quot;. I think orchestrator is more appropriate for systems that try to coordinate multiple agents running at the same time.<p>This terminology is still very much undefined though, so my version may not be the winning definition.
          • nvader11 hours ago
            Another vote in favour of &quot;harness&quot;.<p>I&#x27;m aligning on Agent for the combination of harness + model + context history (so after you fork an agent you now have two distinct agents)<p>And orchestrator means the system to run multiple agents together.
            • Zetaphor3 hours ago
              This has also been my understanding of all of these terms so far
          • kamranjon13 hours ago
            I&#x27;m basically using the agentic features of the Zed editor: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zed.dev&#x2F;agentic" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zed.dev&#x2F;agentic</a><p>It&#x27;s really easy to setup with any OpenAI compatible API and I self host Qwen Coder 3 Next on my personal MBP using LM Studio and just dial in from my work laptop with Zed and tailscale so i can connect from wherever i might be. It&#x27;s able to do all sorts of things like run linting checks and tests and look for issues and refactor code and create files and things like this. I&#x27;m definitely still learning, but it&#x27;s a pretty exciting jump from just talking to a chat bot and copying and pasting things manually.
      • karmakaze15 hours ago
        We don&#x27;t have a Qwen3.5-Coder to compare with, but there is a chart comparing Qwen3.5 to Qwen3 including Qwen3-Next[0].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;LocalLLaMA&#x2F;comments&#x2F;1rivckt&#x2F;visualizing_all_qwen_35_vs_qwen_3_benchmarks&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;LocalLLaMA&#x2F;comments&#x2F;1rivckt&#x2F;visuali...</a>
    • whalesalad11 hours ago
      What hardware are you running this on?
      • Zetaphor3 hours ago
        I&#x27;m running this exact same setup on a Framework Desktop and I&#x27;m seeing ~30 tokens&#x2F;second
    • a3b_unknown15 hours ago
      What is the meaning of &#x27;A3B&#x27;?
      • simonw15 hours ago
        It&#x27;s the number of active parameters for a Mixture of Experts (misleading name IMO) model.<p>Qwen3.5-35B-A3B means that the model itself consists of 35 billion floating point numbers - very roughly 35GB of data - which are all loaded into memory at once.<p>But... on any given pass through the model weights only 3 billion of those parameters are &quot;active&quot; aka have matrix arithmetic applied against them.<p>This speeds up inference considerably because the computer has to do less operations for each token that is processed. It still needs the full amount of memory though as the 3B active it uses are likely different on every iteration.
        • zozbot23413 hours ago
          It will <i>benefit</i> from a full amount of memory for sure, but AIUI if you use system memory and mmap for your experts you can <i>execute</i> the model with only enough memory for the active parameters, it&#x27;s just unbearably slow since it has to swap in new experts for every token. So the more memory you have in excess to that, the more inactive but often-used experts can be kept in RAM for better performance.
          • EnPissant10 hours ago
            The ability to stream weights from disk has nothing to do with MoE or not. You can always do this. It will be unusable either way.
            • zozbot23410 hours ago
              Agreed but for a dense model you&#x27;d have to stream the <i>whole</i> model for every token, whereas with MoE there&#x27;s at least the possibility that some experts may be &quot;cold&quot; for any given request and not be streamed in or cached. This will probably become more likely as models get even sparser. (The &quot;it&#x27;s unusable&quot; judgmemt is correct if you&#x27;re considering close-to-minimum reauirements, but for just getting a model to fit, caching &quot;almost all of it&quot; in RAM may be an excellent choice.)
              • EnPissant6 hours ago
                Unlike offloading weights from VRAM to system RAM, I just can&#x27;t see a situation where you would want to offload to an SSD. The difference is just too large, and any model so large you can&#x27;t run it in system RAM, is going to be so large it is probably unusable except in VRAM.
  • nopurpose47 minutes ago
    How do those companies make money? Qwen, GLM, Kimi, etc all released for free. I have no experience in the field, but from reading HN alone my impression was training is exceptionally costly and inference can be barely made profitable. How&#x2F;why do they fund ongoing development of those models? I&#x27;d understand if they release some of their less capable models for street cred, but they release all their work for free.
    • indrora29 minutes ago
      Ostensibly, a mix of VC funding and that they host an endpoint that lets them run the big (200+GB) models on their infrastructure rather than having to build machines with hundreds of gigs of llm-dedicated memory.
  • hintymad15 hours ago
    There has been tension between Qwen&#x27;s research team and Alibaba&#x27;s product team, say the Qwen App. And recently, Alibaba tried to impose DAU as a KPI. It&#x27;s understandable that a company like Alibaba would force a change of product strategy for any number of reasons. What puzzled me is why they would push out the key members of their research team. Didn&#x27;t the industry have a shortage of model researchers and builders?
    • cmrdporcupine13 hours ago
      Perhaps they wanted future Qwen models to be closed and proprietary, and the authors couldn&#x27;t abide by that.
  • softwaredoug16 hours ago
    I wonder how a US lab hasn&#x27;t dumped truckloads of cash into various laps to ensure these researchers have a place at their lab
    • gaoshan15 hours ago
      ICE has been detaining Chinese people in my area (and going door to door in at least one neighborhood where a lot of Chinese and Indians live). I was hearing about this just last week as word spread amongst the Chinese community here (Ohio) to make sure you have some legal documentation beyond just your driver&#x27;s license on you at all times for protection. People will hear about this through the grapevine and it has a massive (and rightly so) chilling effect. US labs can try but with US government behaving like it is I don&#x27;t think they will have much luck.<p>*edit: not that it matters, but since MAGA can&#x27;t help but assume, these are all US citizens and green card holders that I am referring to.
      • bobthepanda15 hours ago
        Yeah, the Hyundai factory fiasco kind of dashed the idea that the enforcement would spare people working in favored industries setting up in the US.
        • genxy13 hours ago
          The Hyundai factory &quot;enforcement&quot; wasn&#x27;t even legal. Those workers were here to train <i>US workers</i> and the Hyundai employees had proper visas for this.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apnews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;immigration-raid-hyundai-korea-ice-georgia-eae8c87ed6c6c4f0c5679f7f8fe59f54" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apnews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;immigration-raid-hyundai-korea-ic...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.koreatimes.co.kr&#x2F;foreignaffairs&#x2F;20251112&#x2F;hundreds-of-korean-workers-detained-in-georgia-to-file-lawsuit-against-ice" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.koreatimes.co.kr&#x2F;foreignaffairs&#x2F;20251112&#x2F;hundred...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pbs.org&#x2F;newshour&#x2F;nation&#x2F;attorney-says-detained-korean-hyundai-workers-had-special-skills-for-short-term-jobs" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pbs.org&#x2F;newshour&#x2F;nation&#x2F;attorney-says-detained-k...</a><p>The regime is powered by racism and doesn&#x27;t think through things.
          • limagnolia8 hours ago
            Allegedly, though the local labor unions seem to disagree. I guess we&#x27;ll have to wait for the facts to come out in court.
      • jiggawatts11 hours ago
        <i>&quot;Papers, please.&quot;</i> comes to the US of A.
        • nomel8 hours ago
          Every administration since the foundation of ICE has removed illegal immigrants and funded ICE and immigration policy&#x2F;border operations [1].<p>[1] Removals by president: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.migrationpolicy.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;biden-deportation-record" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.migrationpolicy.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;biden-deportation-re...</a>
        • gunsle6 hours ago
          You have to show ID to pick up a prescription or open a bank account. You have to show ID for routine traffic stops. This is such a juvenile, tired argument.
          • baby_souffle5 hours ago
            “You show ID at the bank” is a classic, juvenile and tired argument because it swaps in a voluntary transaction for state coercion.<p>The concern isn’t IDs exist—it’s who’s demanding them, in what context, and what happens if you can’t comply on the spot.
            • jiggawatts5 hours ago
              Not to mention that the USA has a long history of looking down their nose at the USSR for doing exactly what the USA is doing now.<p>I forgot that HN is mostly filled with a younger generation that might not get the reference.<p>The &quot;Papers, please.&quot; quote is a common trope in spy movies, books, etc... about the former Soviet Union.
          • binarycrusader4 hours ago
            You absolutely do not have to show ID to pick up <i>every</i> prescription; just some, which is also dependent on state law, federal law, and pharmacy.<p>But also, I don&#x27;t care if it&#x27;s a tired argument--this isn&#x27;t about how things are, it&#x27;s about how we want them to be. I don&#x27;t want to live in a state action-coerced society.
      • ljsprague15 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • Jcampuzano214 hours ago
          The reality is - it doesn&#x27;t matter. The fact that they have had as many false positives as they have and the way they treat people in general causes it to have rippling effects even for people who are legally here, or are considering legally immigrating.<p>The risk and level of publicity is just too high for many people to even consider, especially people already intelligent&#x2F;capable enough to immigrate anywhere else that doesn&#x27;t have these issues or stay in their own country.
          • 0x3f12 hours ago
            Have they had a lot of false positives? Almost every story I see seems to fall apart on further investigation. To be clear, I&#x27;m sure they have some false positives, but do they have a lot of them relative to any other immigration system?
            • Terr_11 hours ago
              Depends, how are we defining &quot;false positive&quot;? Ex:<p>1. Detained the incorrect person<p>2. Detained the correct person, with the correct legal status<p>3. Detained the correct person, with the correct legal status, but in unlawful circumstances<p>4. Detained the correct person, with the correct legal status, in ostensibly-lawful circumstances, but in a way which is unconstitutional or crazy<p>An example of the final category are the immigrants that spent <i>years</i> being vetted, following the law, and doing expensive paperwork to be citizens. ICE snatched them when they showed up on at the last second as they were to take their citizenship oath. [0] Not because of anything they did, but because today&#x27;s Republican party has decided that it&#x27;s OK to hurt people based on their &quot;shithole&quot; country of birth.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;us-news&#x2F;2025&#x2F;dec&#x2F;30&#x2F;us-citizenship-immigration-trump" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;us-news&#x2F;2025&#x2F;dec&#x2F;30&#x2F;us-citizensh...</a>
              • 0x3f11 hours ago
                These are all forms of false positives but the most popular news stories seem to be where they detain the correct person, correct legal status, lawfully, and the story happens to gloss over the facts about the legal status and focuses on the hardship. Yeah, it&#x27;s a hardship to be split from your family, I can&#x27;t deny that. But I&#x27;m not aware that most countries are very sympathetic to illegal immigrants.<p>If anything I find the stories featuring white&#x2F;European people oddly racist because they seem to assume that I, the reader, will assume a white&#x2F;European person couldn&#x27;t possibly be in violation of immigration rules. But all the ones I&#x27;ve read turned out that they were indeed in violation of immigration rules.<p>Overall as a potential immigrant to the US myself, I find the process capricious and that US citizens by birth don&#x27;t fully appreciate how painful it is or why it shouldn&#x27;t be that way. But I don&#x27;t find it notably worse or more onerous than the vast majority of immigration policies of other countries in practice.
                • platinumrad11 hours ago
                  I&#x27;m not sure what you&#x27;re talking about. The most popular stories are the ones when they detain US citizens, rough them up, and then dump them on the side of the road somewhere without even apologizing.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;us-news&#x2F;2026&#x2F;jan&#x2F;13&#x2F;ice-immigration-target-minnesota" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;us-news&#x2F;2026&#x2F;jan&#x2F;13&#x2F;ice-immigrat...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pbs.org&#x2F;newshour&#x2F;nation&#x2F;a-u-s-citizen-says-ice-forced-open-the-door-to-his-minnesota-home-and-removed-him-in-his-underwear-after-a-warrantless-search" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pbs.org&#x2F;newshour&#x2F;nation&#x2F;a-u-s-citizen-says-ice-f...</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.propublica.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.propublica.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;immigration-dhs-american-...</a>
                  • 0x3f10 hours ago
                    I assume this is probably a function of our respective locations, because the most popular stories I see as an &#x27;outsider&#x27; are those that would discourage tourism or immigration, not those that would worry already-citizens.<p>To address your stories specifically, my point would be that I&#x27;m still not sure whether this shows the US is notably worse on this than any other place.<p>E.g. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Windrush_scandal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Windrush_scandal</a>
                • Terr_5 hours ago
                  &gt; the story happens to gloss over the facts about the legal status and focuses on the hardship<p>Suppose you have a &quot;civil infraction&quot; against you, like an unpaid parking ticket, running across the road in an unsafe way, or overstaying a visa. It&#x27;s terms of US law categories, it&#x27;s less than graffiti on a fence. In this case you were &quot;indeed in violation&quot; of it.<p>However, what happens next is some recently hired weirdos in mismatched camo-gear claiming to be police (with no ID) surround you on the the sidewalk, drag you into a van, and imprison you for months without trial. You are purposefully shuffled between different prisons in different states to prevent your own lawyer from being able to find you.<p>Meanwhile, some internet dude nicknamed 0x40 comes along and says: &quot;Ugh, why do you guys keep <i>glossing over</i> the facts about their parking tickets to focus on the <i>hardship</i>? Yes, it&#x27;s a hardship to be split from your family, I can&#x27;t deny that, but...&quot;<p>In short, one of the several problems right now is the that even for victims that actually did <i>something</i> wrong, the &quot;hardship&quot; is frequently illegal and disproportional. The truthfulness of the cause does not justify the effect.
                  • 0x3f1 hour ago
                    &gt; It&#x27;s terms of US law categories, it&#x27;s less than graffiti on a fence<p>The &#x27;level&#x27; of the crime is only one aspect determining the treatment.<p>Some crimes are inherently more prone to absconders, immigration infractions being one of them.<p>Now, you could just say &quot;oh well, that means we should just not try so hard to get perfect enforcement&quot;. Which is fine. But that&#x27;s obviously not the view of everyone.<p>I&#x27;m not even sure that&#x27;s the view of everyone when it comes to grafitti. Plenty of people would like to be zero tolerance on that too, it just doesn&#x27;t have the political momentum right now that immigration issues do. And immgrants as a class are vulnerable in a way that random natives spraying fences aren&#x27;t.<p>Also, I&#x27;m not sure this really addresses the question(s) of the thread which were more along the lines of &quot;when compared to other countries, does the US: (a) have a higher false positive rate; and&#x2F;or (b) a harsher regime of treatment&quot;.<p>On that, I&#x27;m still not convinced the answer is yes. The UK, for example, has been up to almost exactly the same things. Many European and Asian countries are much worse.
          • 4RealFreedom12 hours ago
            &quot;especially people already intelligent&#x2F;capable enough to immigrate anywhere else that doesn&#x27;t have these issues or stay in their own country&quot; Isn&#x27;t that the point? Come here legally or don&#x27;t come at all.
            • jiggawatts11 hours ago
              The &quot;legally&quot; part is redefined on the whims of a dictator on a weekly basis.
        • gaoshan14 hours ago
          No, all of the specific cases I heard about were Chinese people that were naturalized citizens (some for decades) who were cuffed and detained for a few hours before being released. As others have said it doesn&#x27;t really matter, though. It&#x27;s the sentiment that counts.
        • Conscat13 hours ago
          Even if you&#x27;re not likely to be deported from a foreign country, you wouldn&#x27;t want to face frequent gang intimidation tactics, would you? Simply feeling threatened isn&#x27;t fun, <i>even if</i> nothing truly terrible will happen to you (not to speak of the real risk in being detained regardless).
        • mattnewton14 hours ago
          Sometimes, often times no. They have detained multiple US citizens.
          • nomel7 hours ago
            Any idea what the % is? Absolutes don&#x27;t really make sense without being compared to the number of <i>correct</i> deportations. Detaining someone, for more information, isn&#x27;t always unreasonable. For example, I was in a car accident with someone, and was not allowed to leave until the situation was understood. Was I wrongfully detained? Of course not. It was <i>part of the due process.</i>
        • misnome14 hours ago
          Who cares when you get a bonus per person either way?
      • iso-logi9 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • ncallaway7 hours ago
          &gt; illegal citizens<p>???
          • iso-logi3 hours ago
            The term doesn&#x27;t matter. If you haven&#x27;t been approved to be in a country, you shouldn&#x27;t be in said country.<p>You don&#x27;t go walking into the Amazon Head Office and walk up to the Executives Offices. You aren&#x27;t allowed, why do you think this is acceptable?<p>Sneaking into the office (country) and then benefiting seems not right, what am I missing?
        • pixelatedindex6 hours ago
          Can’t believe we have people who unironically say things like “illegal citizens need to go”. For shame. You probably are one too, would you leave first?
        • nozzlegear8 hours ago
          Legalize illegal citizens
        • CamperBob28 hours ago
          There&#x27;s a process. If the government won&#x27;t follow it, why should the &quot;illegals?&quot;
        • refulgentis9 hours ago
          It’s beautiful at 37 to still see new phrases sometimes, illegal citizens is a quite beautiful one, lol. (also, note the post is clearly about, to put it in your terms, legal citizens)
      • sourcegrift15 hours ago
        Yes. Yes, so true. And the phd types building these models are probably even scared in China that ICE will fly there to deport them.
        • jwolfe15 hours ago
          This thread is about bringing these people to the US.
    • velcrovan16 hours ago
      What the US has done is dumped truckloads of cash to make it likely that as a legal immigrant you will be abducted and sent to a camp.
      • riddlemethat15 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • mattnewton14 hours ago
          I feel like we would disagree on the role of immigration in the US but I really appreciate you calling out how the current administration’s approach is only effective at making viral clips online. Meta comment, but it’s refreshing to talk with people who have different goals while still referencing a shared reality. Removing the masks and adding cameras shouldn’t be controversial unless your goal really is to make a paramilitary force for the president.
          • WarmWash13 hours ago
            Making viral clips is exactly what they want.<p>Their goal is for every one person violently detained, 10 decide to leave on their own, and 100 decide to not come in the first place.
            • KerrAvon12 hours ago
              &quot;Goal&quot; implies there&#x27;s a plan instead of just wanton cruelty for the sake of cruelty.
              • Sabinus12 hours ago
                Illegal immigration has been a political issue in the USA for a long time now. Trump is, however cruelly, fulfilling a campaign promise. One of the few he&#x27;s managed to do.
        • cmrdporcupine14 hours ago
          The unstated but obvious (to me?) goal of what ICE is doing is not to get large numbers of people out of the country, but to drive costs down for migrant labor by further disenfranchising them, making them scared, marginal, etc.<p>If they actually thoroughly evicted non-status migrant workers they&#x27;d have a outright revolt on their hands from farmers and other businesses that depend on them.<p>Instead those businesses can now take further advantage of the fear of harassment and&#x2F;or deportation to drive down compensation and rights.<p>Contrast with countries like Canada that have a legal temporary foreign agriculture worker program that provides a regulated source of seasonal migrant farm worker labour under a non-citizen temporary status, but with some rights (still often abused). It&#x27;s notable to me as a Canadian that I don&#x27;t see this being advocated on any large scale by either party in the US.<p>Anyways, all this just to say that the jackboot clown theater is the point, not a side effect.
          • plorkyeran14 hours ago
            Limiting the supply of migrant labor drives costs <i>up</i>, not down, and the ICE raids have had a significant negative effect on businesses reliant on illegal immigrants.
            • cmrdporcupine14 hours ago
              Do you have numbers on how many migrant farm workers have <i>actually</i> been deported or detained?<p>Because going around and harassing and deporting <i>other</i> or non-essential non-status immigrants <i>would</i> drive labor costs down because of the chill it would put through those who are grudgingly tolerated.<p>And besides, given the quality of personality ICE seems to be employing even (especially) at its highest levels, I simply assume there&#x27;s corruption such that if I&#x27;m a large orchard or whatever I simply pay ICE to stay away.
              • Uhhrrr13 hours ago
                <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.brookings.edu&#x2F;articles&#x2F;macroeconomic-implications-of-immigration-flows-in-2025-and-2026-january-2026-update&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.brookings.edu&#x2F;articles&#x2F;macroeconomic-implication...</a><p>&quot;There was a significant drop-off in entries to the United States in 2025 relative to 2024 and an increase in enforcement activity leading to removals and voluntary departures. We estimate that net migration was between –10,000 and –295,000 in 2025, the first time in at least half a century it has been negative.&quot;
          • reactordev14 hours ago
            They do have a revolt on their hands from farmers… go watch some of their pleas for help.
            • cmrdporcupine14 hours ago
              It&#x27;s nothing like it would be if ICE was actually doing substantially more than fascist theater.<p>There&#x27;d be no food on the tables, frankly. And people in Silicon Valley would have messy houses and algae in their pools.
              • reactordev14 hours ago
                Honestly think it’s just a matter of resources and they would rather play theater for their leader than actually do the job. However, the effect has been felt.<p>Soybean farmers are screwed.
              • snackerblues11 hours ago
                [flagged]
      • gordonhart15 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • Conscat13 hours ago
          It&#x27;s not merely a matter of detainment or deportation. Racial minorities, not just immigrants, face intimidation tactics. These guys are walking into schools, they&#x27;re walking into social security offices, and courthouses. They stand around menacingly just to scare people. They harass random passerby&#x27;s on the street, or in the grocery store. You would feel unsafe and stressed if this happened to you, no matter your circumstances.
        • marci15 hours ago
          Unfortunately, the most extreme is that it&#x27;s the new normal that now, there&#x27;s &gt;0 chance that someone, whether they are a US citizen or not apparently, child or adult, can end up in a camp, with no due process.
        • autoexec15 hours ago
          Give them time, they&#x27;ve only just started. They do waste a lot time abducting random US citizens though.
        • halJordan14 hours ago
          I think it would be a useful exercise to look at all the revocations of legal access in the us, and then do the division to see how we&#x27;ve increased the likelihood of becoming an illegal, and therefore targeted.<p>I dont think youre as right as you want to believe. Certainly not as right as I want you to believe
    • seanmcdirmid10 hours ago
      They already kind of do, but I think anyone who was into US money has already left for it, and the money China is throwing at the problem is pretty good also. You can also have a lot more influence in a Chinese company without having to adopt a weird new American corporate culture.
    • mft_16 hours ago
      Indeed; or, Europe badly needs a competitive model to hedge against US political nonsense.
      • ivan_gammel15 hours ago
        Offering „You are welcome“ relocation package to Anthropic might be a good idea.
        • cmrdporcupine14 hours ago
          Anthropic has gone out of their way to make a point about how much they love and admire the US state and its defense sector. Only drawing the line at a very far point and even when they drew the line it was with a big thing about how they believe in the American defense sector blah blah blah.<p>In any case, there&#x27;s no way Anthropic&#x27;s investors in Silicon Valley would countenance such a move.<p>Also, I&#x27;m biased the logical place is Canada, not Europe. Much of the fundamental&#x2F;foundational research on LLMs, and a large part of the talent, came from universities in Canada anyways.
          • vasco1 hour ago
            Look up how many of the main people are Polish.
        • Imustaskforhelp15 hours ago
          Given how American govt. has treated Anthropic, I think you might be right. EU truly has a remarkable opportunity to make Anthropic&#x2F;Claude European.
          • petcat14 hours ago
            This US administration (or any admin) would almost certainly impose export controls on US AI technology before it would allow one of the frontier model providers to be acquired&#x2F;relocate outside the US. It did the same thing when ASML wanted to acquire Cymer (California company that provides the EUV light source technology). The acquisition was only allowed under strict technology sharing&#x2F;export agreements with the Dutch government.<p>Europe really just needs to rally behind Mistral. That&#x27;s where they should dump their cash.
            • fc417fc80212 hours ago
              Can they actually prevent it though? In typical cases there would be IP licenses involved. But in this case it&#x27;s a valuation based (AFAICT) on a team of people plus their infra. What happens if they all just happened to get hired by &quot;AnthropicEU GmbH&quot; a new entity which has been gifted hundreds of millions in computing resources?
            • ivan_gammel13 hours ago
              Having one „champion“ is flawed European approach. We need local competition and headhunting to make it fly.
              • azinman212 hours ago
                Hard to compete in an environment that’s anti-996 and the pay is so much less.
          • impossiblefork12 hours ago
            I&#x27;m not sure goals are totally aligned though. The current models are created by enormous expense. We know that many stages are done incorrectly. I am confident that they can be replicated without any unique US knowledge.<p>At the moment my impression is instead that the issue is computational resources. It&#x27;s important to stay near the frontier though, and to build up ones capacity to train large models.<p>Consequently I don&#x27;t think we need Anthropic. It wouldn&#x27;t be terrible if they came. Especially if they picked a nice location. Barcelona would be very nice, for example.
          • lejalv12 hours ago
            Given what Amodei thinks of spying non-US citizens, that&#x27;s a hard pass from me. If you are that loyal (servile) to your country leaders, don&#x27;t go elsewhere when you &quot;discover&quot; they are thugs. Put up with it or revolt (as Iranians are being asked to do).
          • ekianjo9 hours ago
            There is no capital in the EU
      • mijoharas12 hours ago
        It&#x27;d be great if they went to Mistral!
      • tiahura15 hours ago
        Competitive models are illegal in the EU.
    • ecshafer15 hours ago
      China is also giving them dump trucks full of cash though. Plus you have to content with the nationalism reason (unfortunately this has died off in America for too many). The idea of building your country is valued for most Chinese I have met. Plus China is incredibly nice to live in, especially if you have lots of money and&#x2F;or connections. So you can work in China, get paid lots of money, feel like you are doing good. Or In America you can get paid lots of money, and get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model.
      • danny_codes15 hours ago
        China city life is amazingly convenient. Trains and subways are just such an enormous quality of life boost. Add to that the relative cleanliness of having nearly zero homelessness and you’ve got something very compelling.<p>I will say we are winning in accessibility. China doesn’t have much of a ramp game
        • softwaredoug15 hours ago
          All very true.<p>I wonder if you max out your options in China. It seems the Party is suspicious of ambition and high profile winners. I&#x27;m sure you can live comfortably, but there&#x27;s a ceiling.
          • danny_codes11 hours ago
            That’s not relevant to normal people. If you’re a billionaire with aspirations of power then it’s probably good there’s a ceiling. Sure beats having Elon randomly firing your public servants while high on ketamine.
          • bdangubic13 hours ago
            what is the issue with having a ceiling?
            • WarmWash13 hours ago
              Star athletes really hate being told they can&#x27;t score more than 10 goals in a season because it&#x27;s unfair to the other weaker players. The players will either leave to go play somewhere else, or they become weaker players themselves.
              • vuurmot5 hours ago
                how about explaining why without giving an analogy?
              • kelipso11 hours ago
                Why would a country want to welcome a psychopath whose goal is to make lots of money and wield political power that results from the money. I&#x27;m sure they would be happier with just as psychopathic people who make a bit less money but don&#x27;t have aspirations of running the country from their secret bunker.
              • bdangubic11 hours ago
                wowsa - wasn&#x27;t expecting star athletes and sports to enter this conversation... wild!
      • 1024core15 hours ago
        I got an offer out of the blue for a consulting gig in ML, offering USD 400&#x2F;hr in China. Assuming this was legit (the offeror seemed legit), it looks like China is also throwing a lot of Benjamins around...
      • petcat15 hours ago
        &gt; Or In America you can get paid lots of money, and get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model.<p>Isn&#x27;t it just straight-up illegal in China to <i>refuse</i> the government from using your model? USA isn&#x27;t perfect, but at least it has active discourse.
        • neves14 hours ago
          At least it has been decades since China Gov bombed innocent people in other countries. A peaceful and responsible government.
          • petcat13 hours ago
            &gt; A peaceful and responsible government.<p>People in Hong Kong died. Over 10,000 were arrested and many are still in prison. The rest are permanently disgraced in their social-credit society.<p>Again, USA is not perfect, but let&#x27;s not dream up some fantasy about the CCP.
            • throw5t4323 hours ago
              &gt; People in Hong Kong died<p>Do you have a legit source for this? When I search for information, I only found this case, “Luo Changqing, a 70-year-old Hong Kong cleaner, died from head injuries sustained after he was hit by a brick thrown by a Hong Kong protester during a violent confrontation between two groups in Sheung Shui, Hong Kong on 13 November 2019.”<p>None of the other legit sources claim the police killed any of the rioters.
            • cyberax13 hours ago
              This &quot;social credit&quot; thing is dead in China.
              • petcat13 hours ago
                As an American, I have no fear of calling the US President a pedo or saying Fuck the Police on my Twitter. Not the case in China. It&#x27;s horrifying.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;reclaimthenet.org&#x2F;china-man-chair-interrogation-social-credit" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;reclaimthenet.org&#x2F;china-man-chair-interrogation-soci...</a>
                • Barrin9210 hours ago
                  &gt; I have no fear of calling the US President a pedo or saying Fuck the Police on my Twitter.<p>Does that matter? In China people don&#x27;t judge the state of their civilization by how easily you can insult the police but whether you need to be afraid to meet them on the street. &quot;I can insult my pedophile president&quot; (who doesn&#x27;t care if you do) isn&#x27;t exactly a flex.<p>It does tell us something though that the evaluation of American life now consists of parasocial interactions with the president on social media. I&#x27;m starting to belief Bruno Maçães, ex Portuguese secretary of state, was prescient with his diagnosis that American material society has rotted to the point where life is now entirely defined by virtual interactions. That&#x27;s the difference between China and the US today.<p>The president&#x27;s a pedophile, a criminal, undeterred by democracy, economy or social disorder but you can freely yell into the void. Have you considered that in the US one can freely say all these things precisely because that&#x27;s irrelevant?
                  • petcat10 hours ago
                    &gt; The president&#x27;s a pedophile, a criminal, undeterred by democracy, economy or social disorder but you can freely yell into the void. Have you considered that in the US one can freely say all these things precisely because that&#x27;s irrelevant?<p>Americans will vote for their Congress representatives in November. They will have a chance to decide how they want their government to be run. The US President was already shot-down once by the Supreme Court (tariffs). The system is working. Let the voters decide, and then let it work.
                    • vintermann2 hours ago
                      &gt; They will have a chance to decide how they want their government to be run.<p>That depends on what&#x27;s on the ballot.<p>&gt; The system is working.<p>If it is, how did you end up here again?
                • cyberax12 hours ago
                  Oh, China absolutely does not tolerate _public_ dissent very much including highly visible social media posts. Everybody there knows that.<p>But this:<p>&gt; According to the social credit system, Chinese citizens are punishable if they indulge in buying too many video games, buying too much junk food, having a friend online who has a low credit score, visiting unauthorized websites, posting “fake news” online, and more.<p>...is just pure bullshit. There were _ideas_ about including these kinds of stuff into the score, but they have never been implemented. At this point, the social credit score is only used to find people who dodge court decisions.
                  • fc417fc80212 hours ago
                    &quot;At this point&quot; being the key phrase.
                    • kelipso11 hours ago
                      A key phrase that can be used to speculate about whatever bs one can think of.
                      • fc417fc80210 hours ago
                        A low effort and bad faith rebuttal on your part.<p>Please ignore the gun pointed at your head &#x2F; social credit score &#x2F; masked goons roving about Minnesota &#x2F; flock cameras &#x2F; etc as it hasn&#x27;t been used against you <i>at this point</i>.
                        • phatfish8 hours ago
                          It seems to me your argument is in bad faith because (taking the parents analysis at face value) you created a straw man &quot;social credit score&quot; that doesn&#x27;t exist. But there ARE masked goons roving Minnesota.
                          • fc417fc8027 hours ago
                            I did no such thing - you are the one creating a straw man. The comment chain I responded to has several different parties making various claims about the social credit score. My comments are consistent with those I responded to.<p>If you wish to dispute the veracity of one or more comments in the thread, by all means do so. But please make a substantive argument and (given the nature of the topic) cite sources.
          • strangegecko9 hours ago
            Constant military drills around Taiwan isn&#x27;t peaceful or responsible.<p>China is bullying lots of countries in the SCS (ramming Philippine coast guard ships, building military installations in the SCS, ...). Not peaceful or responsible.
            • phatfish7 hours ago
              If China was serious about a military solution for Taiwan they would be invading right now while the US is unloading into the desert.
            • throw5t4323 hours ago
              &gt; building military installations in the SCS<p>Many countries in the SCS are doing this. In fact China was late to the game, as Vietnam did it much earlier.
            • maxglute8 hours ago
              AKA defending itself against separatists and sovereignty intrusions from much less powerful aggressors with unreasonable amount of restraint. One would argue overly peaceful, and irresponsible to the point of detrimental peace disease. BTW PRC settled most border disputes in recorded history with most concessions, majority over 50%, that objectively makes PRC the most peaceful rising power in recent history. Even in SCS PRC was second last to militarize, the other disputees started land reclamations and militarization first (apart from Brunei), aka a fucked around and find out situation. Even then all PRC did was build a bigger island, instead of glassing theirs, PRC coast guard last to weaponize as well.
          • WarmWash13 hours ago
            What&#x27;s ironic is that China is desperately trying to be that country, but the US has then in a geographic&#x2F;geopolitical choke hold.
        • vintermann2 hours ago
          Probably. There are different kinds of political power though; it seems the qwen architects are using one right now.<p>The real political power we have through our vote is probably smaller than the political power most of us here have from the option to quit.
        • ecshafer14 hours ago
          I would imagine if it isn&#x27;t illegal its a very bad idea not to. But regardless, I would bet large amounts of money that you would never get any flack for doing anything for the government. If I went on X, Threads, Bluesky, TikTok and said &quot;Hey I am a software engineer selling awesome new technology to the government and military!&quot; I am going to get <i>Americans</i> attacking me for supporting Trump &#x2F; ICE &#x2F; FBI whatever the current issue of the day is. If I did the same on Douyin or Weibo the response would be able making China strong, and there would be no criticism of that choice.
          • cmrdporcupine14 hours ago
            Sure, but the difference is that while the Chinese state is measurably <i>awful</i> on all sorts of human rights things within their own borders... they&#x27;re not <i>currently</i> dropping bombs on foreign cities, starving a neighbour of critical petroleum shipments, or heavily funding an ally to slowly exterminate a population.
            • fc417fc80212 hours ago
              What point are you trying to make here? Are government abuses somehow inherently better or worse depending on where they happen?<p>Do you imagine an invasion of Taiwan won&#x27;t involve dropping bombs?<p>I feel like we should be able to agree that providing authoritarian regimes with high tech tools is immoral in the general case.
              • cmrdporcupine11 hours ago
                My point is as a non-American I feel no allegiance to either state, and current events don&#x27;t make me sympathetic to the geo-political aims of the USA. So I don&#x27;t see a strong moral case for this tech being an especial purvey of either party.<p>If you&#x27;d asked me two years ago my answer might have been different.<p>And to the original point, yeah, I would feel entirely justified in the critique of engineers in providing tools to the US defense apparatus at this point.<p>At least the Chinese shops are giving their weights away for free, and not demanding that any government ban the rest.
                • sciencejerk3 hours ago
                  Why are they giving them away for free?
                  • fc417fc80215 minutes ago
                    Why did Meta release theirs? The better question is, why not? If you aren&#x27;t at the cutting edge and don&#x27;t have a moat then releasing them is pure reputational upside with zero downside.
      • VWWHFSfQ14 hours ago
        &gt; China is incredibly nice to live in<p>I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;s a very nice place to live if you&#x27;re content to just stay quiet in society and never put a political sign in your yard or even just talk about the wrong thing with your friend in a WeChat.
        • cyberax13 hours ago
          This is an exaggeration. Nobody in China cares about what you speak with each other privately, and people talk about stupid policies all the time. The government cares about _public_ actions.<p>In practical terms, if you&#x27;re not kind of person who would want to run for an office in the US, China is incredibly comfortable. Cities are safe, with barely any violent crime. Public drug use is nonexistent. And with the US-level AI researcher income, you&#x27;d be in the top 0.1% earners.
          • petcat12 hours ago
            &gt; nobody in China cares about what you speak with each other privately, and people talk about stupid policies all the time. The government cares about _public_ actions.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47252833">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47252833</a><p>My comment and the linked video says otherwise. The guy was in a private group chat and said some nasty things about the police for confiscating his motorcycle. Now he&#x27;s arrested and in the Tiger Chair.<p>How are we explaining this?
            • maxglute12 hours ago
              Group with 75 people. That&#x27;s a crowd, doesn&#x27;t matter if gated behind QR code invites. Shit talk cops and gov with the bois is fine. Shit talk &#x2F; soapbox in a crowd (virtual or real) and get caught or reported = drink tea on the menu.
        • bdangubic13 hours ago
          try to protest in america and see how that works out for you long-term. or say protest against genocide in gaza at an uni or generally in public…
          • cyberax13 hours ago
            Sigh. Let&#x27;s not invent things? You can protest anything in the US just fine, with generally no consequences. Heck, our local _high_ _school_ students go out and protest everything to weasel out of classes.
            • cheema3312 hours ago
              Trump admin did put people in prison and then deported them, for doing nothing more than protesting.<p>Not as bad as China sure, but not as good as other civilized nations.
              • fc417fc80211 hours ago
                Let&#x27;s just clarify that visitors don&#x27;t have the same rights as citizens. Whether or not you agree with the current administration&#x27;s policies hopefully we can agree that it is entirely reasonable for them to deport foreign political dissidents more or less at their discretion.<p>If you want to put this to the test try crossing the Canadian border and when they ask you the purpose of your visit respond that it&#x27;s to attend a protest.
                • cheema337 hours ago
                  &gt; Let&#x27;s just clarify that visitors don&#x27;t have the same rights as citizens.<p>Yunseo Chung was not a visitor. She came to the United States from South Korea at age 7. She was arrested last year for peacefully protesting. Charges against her were dropped but the govt. canceled her green card.<p>The govt. has been trying to deport her since then, but the courts keep blocking it.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanrightsfirst.org&#x2F;yunseo-chung-v-trump-administration&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanrightsfirst.org&#x2F;yunseo-chung-v-trump-administra...</a><p>While the legality of these actions are being debated in courts, I think most of us can agree that this is reprehensible behavior on part of the Trump admin.
                  • fc417fc8026 hours ago
                    I agree that particular example is reprehensible.<p>I never claimed to condone the actions of the current admin. The examples of people being deported for protesting that I am familiar with are student visa holders. While I don&#x27;t personally support the examples that I am aware of, I also recognize that in those specific cases the executive branch appears to be within the bounds of the law. I don&#x27;t even object to the executive branch having the power to cancel the visas of political dissidents in the general case, merely to how they are choosing to apply it.<p>It&#x27;s surprising to me to learn that a green card could be revoked for protected speech. That ought to fall well outside the bounds of the law IMO. Green cards and visas are entirely different things.
              • xienze8 hours ago
                &gt; Trump admin did put people in prison and then deported them, for doing nothing more than protesting.<p>Link? I’m guessing we’re going to see that this definition of “protesting” involves being aggressive and directly in the face of law enforcement officers, not merely holding a sign at a distance.
                • cheema337 hours ago
                  &gt; Link? I’m guessing we’re going to see that this definition of “protesting” involves being aggressive and directly in the face of law enforcement officers, not merely holding a sign at a distance.<p>Please read up on this one example of a US permanent resident. And then justify the actions of the govt against Yunseo Chung.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanrightsfirst.org&#x2F;yunseo-chung-v-trump-administration&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;humanrightsfirst.org&#x2F;yunseo-chung-v-trump-administra...</a>
            • bdangubic12 hours ago
              this is funny if you are being sarcastic
              • cyberax10 hours ago
                Oh, I fully support their right to protest.<p>It just looks a bit ridiculous when students walk out in protest against things that are far outside the influence of their school, city, or even state.
      • maxglute12 hours ago
        &gt; get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model<p>Well duh, as recently demonstrated, an US model used by the US gov will 100% end up murdering actual children sooner than later, in this case less than a calendar year in some far flung war that many Americans do not support. Alternatively PRC model used by CCP might kill in some hypothetical future but for national reunification&#x2F;rejuvenation that many Chinese support. At the end of the day, researchers and population on one side sleeps more soundly.
      • leptons13 hours ago
        Chinese people are very racist towards non-Chinese. It might seem like a happy utopia, but if you aren&#x27;t Chinese, then you may not really enjoy your time there. It may not be quite as bad as being black in rural US south, but being black (or anything non-Chinese) in China is still not going to be a good time.
        • WarmWash13 hours ago
          Racism in even the worse parts of America doesn&#x27;t even begin to touch the racism present in monocultural&#x2F;monoracial countries.
          • Larrikin12 hours ago
            Have you experienced racism? In Japan atleast, it was evenly applied. That company won&#x27;t rent to foreigners but this one will. That company won&#x27;t hire foreigners but this one will. Police will bother you if you ride a bike, but they will be polite while they waste 10 minutes of your time asking for your gaijin card for biking while foreign.<p>In the US people try to hide it and are far more sinister about it, since there are a lot of laws against obvious racism. The cops are also happy in the US to just kill you.<p>The racism in the US comes out of hate where as what I experienced abroad was more, we don&#x27;t think you&#x27;ll fit in and follow the rules and you have to constantly prove that you can.<p>I didn&#x27;t spend too much time in China so maybe it is a racist hell hole.<p>But my experience in Japan was that white immigrants were way more inclined to make a huge deal about the lighter racism they experienced because they had never been somewhere where their skin color was a disadvantage.
            • nozzlegear11 hours ago
              This is a weird argument. Japanese racism is fine because the Japanese are polite and apply it evenly?
              • Larrikin11 hours ago
                Despite what some on this site will argue, racism is always bad.
            • Sabinus11 hours ago
              &quot;we don&#x27;t think you&#x27;ll fit in and follow the rules and you have to constantly prove that you can&quot;<p>I speculate that if you were a permanent minority instead of a visiting inconvenience, then that &#x27;nice&#x27; racism you describe would metastasize into the type of racism you see in the USA. It&#x27;s more friction from time and exposure added on. And, you know, slavery.
          • segmondy7 hours ago
            There&#x27;s a very big difference between xenophobia and racism. Racism is much worse.
        • losvedir11 hours ago
          What do you mean by racist? I&#x27;m a white&#x2F;hispanic American and spent 3 months in China and didn&#x27;t really notice anything problematic towards me.
          • leptons7 hours ago
            That&#x27;s great, but it&#x27;s pretty well known that racism exists in many forms in many countries. Just google &quot;racism in china&quot;.
        • px4313 hours ago
          Wild to call 1.42 billion people racist despite having met very few of them.
          • leptons10 hours ago
            It&#x27;s funny that you think you know who I&#x27;ve met. <i>YOU DON&#x27;T KNOW ME</i>.
      • jamespo15 hours ago
        Damn that social conscience, huh?
    • mmaunder14 hours ago
      Yeah that was my first thought is it’s a tit for tat poach. They got the Gemini researcher so google responded in kind.
    • expedition3211 hours ago
      If memory serves the father of the Chinese bomb studied in America and went back. It may be inconceivable to Americans but Chinese patriotism exists.<p>Besides you can live a comfortable life in PRC nowadays or live in a racist America.
    • lynndotpy14 hours ago
      Well, the problem aren&#x27;t just the NSF funding cuts. Everyone else is already dumping truckloads of cash. There&#x27;s also the public health situation (who wants measles or polio?), the risk of retaliatory attacks from the countries we&#x27;re at war with, etc. You could write paragraphs about why the US is less attractive to researchers.<p>When I was a deep learning PhD in the first Trump administration, US universities were already very deeply affected by the Muslim ban, and so a lot of talent ended up in other countries.<p>Sibling commentators are rightfully pointing out that foreigners, especially those who would not be recognized as white, face an onerous and risky customs process with long-term and increasing risks of deportation. When you see a headline like the NIST labs abruptly restricting foreign scientists, _everything_ else feels uncertain. Even if someone doesn&#x27;t believe they&#x27;re personally at risk for deportation, they&#x27;re still seeing everything else.<p>And then it all boils down to a reputational thing. The era where we were the top choice for research is in the past. If you start a PhD in the US on your resume during this era, you might be anticipating how you&#x27;ll answe the question of why you weren&#x27;t good enough to get accepted somewhere better.
      • sciencejerk3 hours ago
        Where do researchers go instead of USA then? Genuinely curious
    • bilbo0s16 hours ago
      They probably have tried, but you have to have more cash than those researchers feel they can get starting their own lab. When you consider the fact that their new startup lab would have the entire nation of China as, in effect, a captive market; you start to see how almost any amount of money would be too little to convince them not to make a run at that new startup. If money is their aim.<p>I think Alibaba needs to just give these guys a blank check. Let them fill it in themselves. Absent that, I&#x27;m pretty sure they&#x27;ll make their own startup.<p>I do think it&#x27;d be a big loss for the rest of the world though if they close whatever model their startup comes up with.
      • simgt15 hours ago
        &gt; I do think it&#x27;d be a big loss for the rest of the world though if they close whatever model their startup comes up with.<p>That&#x27;s very likely to happen once the gap with OpenAI&#x2F;Anthropic has been closed and they managed to pop the bubble.
        • bobthepanda15 hours ago
          I don’t know, the EV bubble deflated and Chinese firms are still pumping them out with subsidies like their life depends on it.
  • lzaborowski13 hours ago
    One thing I’ve noticed with local models is that people tolerate a lot more trial and error behavior. When a hosted model wastes tokens it feels expensive, but when a local model loops a bit it just feels like it’s “thinking.”<p>If models like Qwen can get good enough for coding tasks locally, the real shift might be economic rather than purely capability.
    • trvz10 hours ago
      Wasted tokens are preferred for local models, I need the GPU mainframe in my bedroom to heat it as I live in a third world country with unreliable heating (Switzerland).
  • vicchenai12 hours ago
    Been running the 32B locally for a few days and honestly surprised how well it handles agentic coding stuff. Definitely punches above its weight. Only complaint is it sometimes decides to ignore half your prompt when instructions get long, but at this size I guess thats the tradeoff.
    • ramgine5 hours ago
      Running 32b on what hardware?
      • nurettin3 hours ago
        I&#x27;m running it on a pure cpu 2020 model ryzen server with 2x128 GB RAM with llama.cpp, it seems as intelligent as gpt4. I optimized a little bit by forcing it to run on a single RAM stick and tuning llama.cpp build parameters, going from 3-5 tok&#x2F;s to a more acceptable 5-8 tok&#x2F;s.<p>It can call tools and reason adequately enough to use them when appropriate.
    • mmis10007 hours ago
      &gt; Only complaint is it sometimes decides to ignore half your prompt when instructions get long<p>This sounds like your context is too big and getting cut off.
  • RandyOrion4 hours ago
    First, thank you Junyang and Qwen team for your incredible work. You deserve better.<p>This is sad for local LLM community. First we lost wizardLM, Yi and others, then we lost Llama and others, now we lost Qwen...
  • airstrike16 hours ago
    I&#x27;m hopeful they will pick up their work elsewhere and continue on this great fight for competitive open weight models.<p>To be honest, it&#x27;s sort of what I expected governments to be funding right now, but I suppose Chinese companies are a close second.
  • skeeter202016 hours ago
    Getting a bit of whiplash goin from AI is replacing people, to AI is dead without (these specific) people. Surely we&#x27;re far enough ahead that AI can take it from here?<p>Wild times!
    • janalsncm14 hours ago
      Anthropic has one nine of uptime right now. One.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;status.claude.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;status.claude.com&#x2F;</a><p>If AI could effectively replace people, you wouldn’t need CEOs to keep trying to convince people.
      • OsrsNeedsf2P13 hours ago
        That&#x27;s 99% is two nines?
        • oefrha7 hours ago
          I would take their displayed uptime with a huge grain of salt. The other day Claude Code and claude.ai web were completely unavailable for me (Claude Code got into logged out state and couldn’t even log in) for at least two hours, they showed hours of “elevated errors”, yet not a single minute of downtime was recorded. And then there was yet another outage finally with recorded downtime a few hours later…<p>Edit: This incident: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;status.claude.com&#x2F;incidents&#x2F;kyj825w6vxr8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;status.claude.com&#x2F;incidents&#x2F;kyj825w6vxr8</a>
        • janalsncm11 hours ago
          It was 98.xx this morning when I posted.
          • jefftk9 hours ago
            This is pretty pedantic, but I think it&#x27;s usually rounded. 1=90%, 2=99%, 3=99.9%. I&#x27;d say 98% is &quot;not even two nines&quot; but not &quot;one nine&quot;.
            • janalsncm9 hours ago
              Honestly my impression was the “nines” of reliability just means how many nines your reliability starts with, as a decimal. I never thought much about it though.<p>I will also say it’s amusing that the debate is between one and two nines. Neither is objectively great. If you built a system with &gt;3.65 days of downtime in a year that wouldn’t be something you’d brag about in an interview.
      • rprend7 hours ago
        Anthropic is a great case study in why uptime doesn’t matter. The service is so valuable that you can have one nine uptime and add $9bil ARR in 3 months.
      • levocardia4 hours ago
        &quot;product market fit is when people are ripping the product out of your hands and everything is breaking constantly&quot; - seems bullish to me
      • Jeremy102612 hours ago
        Anthropic also fires off the alarm bells seemingly at any sign of issue. I&#x27;ve personally only noticed an outage once, and the status page wasn&#x27;t even showing it as down at that time. It eventually did update about 45 minutes later, then I was back up and running another 15 minutes later but the &quot;outage&quot; on the status page stayed up for another hour or so.<p>Probably good to sent alerts early, but they might be going a bit too early.
      • kylemaxwell12 hours ago
        Everything on that page has two nines, so not sure what you&#x27;re trying to say here.
        • relaxing12 hours ago
          Right now everything on that page is 98 point something, so it must be fluctuating.
        • janalsncm11 hours ago
          This morning it was less than 99% which is one nine of reliability.<p>In any case, two nines of reliability is not impressive.
      • mungoman214 hours ago
        Not sure what the uptime is meant to signal. People have quite low uptime as well…
        • jug13 hours ago
          Huh? Servers aren&#x27;t people and thus have completely different expectations, or what am I missing here
        • greenchair11 hours ago
          uptime signals reliability
      • px4313 hours ago
        9% uptime?
        • AgentME10 hours ago
          One 9 would be 90% (aka 0.9)
        • janalsncm9 hours ago
          9% would be 0.09 which is no nines.
    • vidarh16 hours ago
      Who is suggesting &quot;AI is dead without (these specific) people&quot;? People are wondering what it means <i>specifically for the Qwen model family</i>.
    • mhitza16 hours ago
      We&#x27;ve gone from AGI goals to short-term thinking via Ads. That puts things better in perspective, I think.
    • dude25071115 hours ago
      Claude is incapable of producing a native application for itself, and is bad enough with web ones to justify Anthropic acquiring Bun.
  • quantum_state15 hours ago
    I would second that Qwen3.5 is exceptionally good. In a calibration, it (35b variant) was running locally with Ada NextGen 24GB to do the same things with easy-llm-cli in comparison with gemini-cli + Gemini 3 Pro, they were at par … really impressive it ran pretty fast …
    • vardalab14 hours ago
      q4 quant gives you 175 tg and 7K pp, beats most cloud providers
  • qwenverifier9 hours ago
    As a mathematician, lately I experimented a lot with Qwen, to produce as good as possible professional summaries and relations between articles, and in one case even a verification of misattributions claims which was used in an arXiv article.<p>All is collected in <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imar.ro&#x2F;~mbuliga&#x2F;ai-talks.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imar.ro&#x2F;~mbuliga&#x2F;ai-talks.html</a>
  • w10-112 hours ago
    It sounds like the lead was demoted to attract new talent, quit as a result, and the rest of the team also resigned to force management to change their minds.<p>If so, I&#x27;m happy that the team held together, and I hope that endogenous tech leads get to control their own career and tech destiny after hard work leads to great products. (It&#x27;s almost as inspiring as tank man, and the tank commanders who tried to avoid harming him...)<p>(ducking the downvote for challenging the primacy of equity...)
  • xyzsparetimexyz10 hours ago
    Forget it Jake, its China(town)
  • nurettin13 hours ago
    I am singularly impressed by 35B&#x2F;A3, hope that is not the reason he had to leave.
  • zoba16 hours ago
    I tried the new qwen model in Codex CLI and in Roo Code and I found it to be pretty bad. For instance I told it I wanted a new vite app and it just started writing all the files from scratch (which didn’t work) rather than using the vite CLI tool.<p>Is there a better agentic coding harness people are using for these models? Based on my experience I can definitely believe the claims that these models are overfit to Evals and not broadly capable.
    • sosodev16 hours ago
      I&#x27;ve noticed that open weight models tend to hesitate to use tools or commands unless they appeared often in the training or you tell them very explicitly to do so in your AGENTS.md or prompt.<p>They also struggle at translating very broad requirements to a set of steps that I find acceptable. Planning helps a lot.<p>Regarding the harness, I have no idea how much they differ but I seem to have more luck with <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pi.dev" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pi.dev</a> than OpenCode. I think the minimalism of Pi meshes better with the limited capabilities of open models.
      • malwrar13 hours ago
        +1 to this, anecdotally I’ve found in my own evaluations that if your system prompt doesn’t explicitly declare how to invoke a tool and e.g. describe what each tool does, most models I’ve tried fail to call tools or will try to call them but not necessarily use the right format. With the right prompt meanwhile, even weak models shoot up in eval accuracy.
    • vardalab13 hours ago
      Have frontier lab do the plan which is the most time consuming part anyways and then local llm do the implementation. Frontier model can orchestrate your tickets, write a plan for them and dispatch local llm agents to implement at about 180 tokens&#x2F;s, vllm can probably ,manage something like 25 concurrent sessions on RTX 6000 Do it all in a worktrees and then have frontier model do the review and merge. I am just a retired hobbyist but that&#x27;s my approach, I run everything through gitea issues, each issue gets launched by orchestrator in a new tmux window and two main agents (implementer and reviewer get their own panes so I can see what&#x27;s going on). I think claude code now has this aspect also somewhat streamlined but I have seen no need to change up my approach yet since I am just a retired hobbyist tinkering on my personal projects. Also right now I just use claude code subagents but have been thinking of trying to replace them with some of these Qwen 3.5 models because they do seem cpable and I have the hardware to run them.
    • Tepix12 hours ago
      What is &quot;the new qwen model&quot;? There are a dozen and you can get them in a dozen different quantizations (or more) which are of different quality each.
    • lreeves13 hours ago
      In my experience Qwen3.5&#x2F;Qwen3-Coder-Next perform best in their own harness, Qwen-Code. You can also crib the system prompt and tool definitions from there though. Though caveat, despite the Qwen models being the state of the art for local models they are like a year behind anything you can pay for commercially so asking for it to build a new app from scratch might be a bit much.
    • ihsw14 hours ago
      [dead]
  • ilaksh15 hours ago
    Does anyone know when the small Qwen 3.5 models are going to be on OpenRouter?
    • armanj15 hours ago
      they&#x27;re already there ?? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;openrouter.ai&#x2F;qwen&#x2F;qwen3.5-27b" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;openrouter.ai&#x2F;qwen&#x2F;qwen3.5-27b</a>
      • yorwba15 hours ago
        There are smaller ones on HuggingFace <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;models?other=qwen3_5&amp;sort=least_params&amp;search=Qwen%2FQwen3.5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;models?other=qwen3_5&amp;sort=least_param...</a> with 0.8B, 2B, 4B and 9B parameters.
      • ilaksh15 hours ago
        Like 4B, 2B, 9B. Supposedly they are surprisingly smart.
        • Sakthimm14 hours ago
          Yep. The 9B has excellent image recognition. I showed it a PCB photo and it correctly identified all components and the board type from part numbers and shape. OCR quality was solid. Tool calling with opencode worked without issues, but general coding ability is still far from sonnet-tier. Asked it to add a feature to an existing react app, it couldn&#x27;t produce an error-free build and fell into a delete-redo loop. Even when I fixed the errors, the UI looked really bad. A more explicit prompt probably would have helped. Opus one-shotted it, same prompt, the component looked exactly as expected.<p>But I&#x27;ll be running this locally for note summarization, code review, and OCR. Very coherent for its size.
          • BoredomIsFun40 minutes ago
            &gt; Very coherent for its size.<p>I found them to be less than stellar at writing coherent prose. Qwen 3.5 9b was worse in my tests than Gemma 3 4b.
  • ChrisArchitect16 hours ago
    More discussion:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47246746">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47246746</a>
  • lacoolj13 hours ago
    I wonder if an american company poached one&#x2F;all of them. They&#x27;ve been pretty much bleeding edge of open models and would not surprise me if Amazon or Google snatched them up
    • ferfumarma13 hours ago
      It would surprise me if they&#x27;re willing to come to the US in the setting of the current DHS and ICE situation.
  • raffael_de16 hours ago
    &gt; me stepping down. bye my beloved qwen.<p>the qwen is dead, long live the qwen.
  • hwers16 hours ago
    My conspiracy theory hat is that somehow investors with a stake in openai as well is sabotaging, like they did when kicking emad out of stabilityai
    • storus15 hours ago
      More likely some high ranking party member&#x27;s nepobaby from Gemini sniffed success with Qwen and the original folks just walked away as their reward disappeared.
      • ahmadyan13 hours ago
        source?
        • WarmWash13 hours ago
          There is no source. But the party in China does have ultimate control.<p>There would never be an Anthropic&#x2F;Pentagon situation in China, because in China there isn&#x27;t actually separation between the military and any given AI company. The party is fully in control.
    • liuliu15 hours ago
      apples v.s. oranges. The later is true, Emad did get sabotaged (for not being able to raise money in time, about 8-month before he&#x27;s leaving). Junyang didn&#x27;t have that long arc of incidents.
    • jongjong8 hours ago
      Interesting reading this. It reminds me of my time in cryptocurrency sector. I suspected that some team members were paid by Ethereum folks to sabotage our project. Why do I suspect Ethereum? Because our project founders ended up switching to the Ethereum ecosystem and ignored&#x2F;suppressed better solutions from their own ecosystem. I think there&#x27;s something about tech hype which attracts these kinds of people who like to play dirty.
  • vonneumannstan16 hours ago
    Were they kneecapped by Anthropic blocking their distillation attempts?
    • zozbot23413 hours ago
      What Anthropic was complaining about is training on mass-elicited chat logs. It is very much a ToS violation (you aren&#x27;t allowed to exploit the service for the purpose of building a competitor) so the complaint is well-founded but (1) it&#x27;s not &quot;distillation&quot; properly understood; it can only feasibly extract the same kind of narrow knowledge you&#x27;d read out from chat logs, perhaps including primitive &quot;let&#x27;s think step by step&quot; output (which are not true fine-tuned reasoning tokens); because you have no access to the actual weights; and (2) it&#x27;s something Western AI firms are very much believed to do to one another and to Chinese models all the time anyway. Hence the brouhaha about Western models claiming to be DeepSeek when they answer in Chinese.
      • red2awn13 hours ago
        The &quot;distillation attacks&quot; are mostly using Claude as LLM-as-a-judge. They are not training on the reasoning chains in a SFT fashion.
        • zozbot23413 hours ago
          So they&#x27;re paying expensive input tokens to extract at best a tiny amount of information (&quot;judgment&quot;) per request? That&#x27;s even <i>less</i> like &quot;distillation&quot; than the other claim of them trying to figure out reasoning by asking the model to think step by step.
          • red2awn10 hours ago
            LLM-as-a-judge is quite effective method to RL a model, similar to RLHF but more objective and scalable. But yes, anthropic is making it more serious than it is. Plus DeepSeek only did it for 125k requests, significantly less than the other labs, but Anthropic still listed them first to create FUD.
  • kartika84848414 hours ago
    what the hell, their models were promising tho
  • umairnadeem1233 hours ago
    [dead]
  • aplomb102614 hours ago
    [dead]
  • butILoveLife16 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • kamranjon16 hours ago
      I use Qwen 3 Coder Next daily on my mac as my main coding agent. It is incredibly capable and its strange how you are painting this picture as if its a fringe use case, there are whole communities that have popped up around running local models.
      • butILoveLife16 hours ago
        Can I doubt your claim? I have had such terrible luck with AI coding on &lt;400B models. Not to mention, I imagine your codebase is tiny. Or you are working for some company that isnt keeping track of your productivity.<p>I am trying super hard to use cheap models, and outside SOTA models, they have been more trouble than they are worth.
        • arcanemachiner14 hours ago
          Yesterday, I got Qwen-Coder-Next to build a python script that reads a Postman collection, pulls the data from it to build a request to one of the endpoints, download a specific group of files whose URLs were buried in the JSON payload in that endpoint, then transform then all to a specific size of PNG, all without breaking a sweat. I didn&#x27;t even have to tell it to use Pillow, but it did everything to a T.<p>Use case means everything. I doubt this model would fare well on a large codebase, but this thing is incredible.
        • kamranjon14 hours ago
          Absolutely. So my codebase is huge, it&#x27;s a monolith. But my work is in very specific parts of the codebase, I don&#x27;t pull the entire code base into context (and I don&#x27;t think that is common practice even with claude) - I start at a specific point with a specific task and work with the agent to achieve something clearly defined, for example writing tests, extracting things into separate files, refactoring or even scaffolding a new feature. You have to periodically start new threads, because you&#x27;ll start hitting the limits of the context, but I max it out at over 200k because I have the memory overhead on my 128gb mbp to do that, so I can get quite a lot done.<p>I really recommend trying the Qwen models - 3 coder next is really incredible. GLM 4.7 flash is also incredibly performant on modest hardware. Important things to consider is setting the temperature and top_p and top_k values etc based on what is recommended by the provider of the model - a thing as simple as that could result in a huge difference in performance.<p>The other big leap for me was switching to Zed editor and getting its agent stuff just seamlessly integrated. If you run LM Studio on your local machine it&#x27;s super easy and even setting it up on a remote machine and calling out to LM Studio is dead simple.
    • simonw16 hours ago
      The thing I&#x27;m most excited about is the moment that I run a model on my 64GB M2 that can usefully drive a coding agent harness.<p><i>Maybe</i> Qwen3.5-35B-A3B is that model? This comment reports good results: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47249343#47249782">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=47249343#47249782</a><p>I need to put that through its paces.
      • JLO6416 hours ago
        Yesterday I test ran Qwen3.5-35B-A3B on my MBP M3 Pro with 36GB via LM Studio and OpenCode. I didn’t have it write code but instead use Rodney (thanks for making it btw!) to take screenshots and write documentation using them. Overall I was pretty impressed at how well it handled the harness and completed the task locally. In the past I would’ve had Haiku do this, but I might switch to doing it locally from now on.
      • xrd16 hours ago
        I suppose this shows my laziness because I&#x27;m sure you have written extensively about it, but what orchestrator (like opencode) do you use with local models?
        • simonw15 hours ago
          I&#x27;ve not really settled on one yet. I&#x27;ve tried OpenCode and Codex CLI, but I know I should give Pi a proper go.<p>So far none of them have be useful enough at first glance with a local model for me to stick with them and dig in further.
          • xrd15 hours ago
            I&#x27;ve used opencode and the remote free models they default to aren&#x27;t awful but definitely not on par with Gemini CLI nor Claude. I&#x27;m really interested in trying to find a way to chain multiple local high end consumer Nvidia cards into an alternative to the big labs offering.
            • arcanemachiner14 hours ago
              Kimi K2.5 is pretty good, you can use it on OpenRouter. Fireworks is a good provider, they were giving free access to the model on OpenCode when it first released.
          • PhilipRoman15 hours ago
            When you say you use local model in OpenCode, do you mean through the ollama backend? Last time I tried it with various models, I got issues where the model was calling tools in the wrong format.
            • xrd11 hours ago
              That&#x27;s exactly why I&#x27;m asking! I&#x27;m still mystified about whether I can use ollama at all. I&#x27;m hopeful that the flexiblity might become interesting at some point.
    • NortySpock15 hours ago
      I managed to get qwen2.5-coder:14B working under ollama on an Nvidia 2080 Ti with 11GB of VRAM, using ollama cli, outputting what looks like 200 words-per-minute to my eye<p>It has been useful for education (&quot;What does this Elixir code do? &lt;Paste file&gt; ..... &lt;general explanation&gt; &quot;then What this line mean?&quot;)<p>as well as getting a few basic tests written when I&#x27;m unfamiliar with the syntax. (&quot;In Elixir Phoenix, given &lt;subject under test, paste entire module file&gt; and &lt;test helper module, paste entire file&gt; and &lt;existing tests, pasted in, used both for context and as examples&gt; , what is one additional test you would write?&quot;)<p>This is useful in that I get a single test I can review, run, paste in, and I&#x27;m not using any quota. Generally I have to fix it, but that&#x27;s just a matter of reading the actual test and throwing the test failure output to the LLM to propose a fix. Some human judgement is required but once I got going adding a test took 10 minutes despite being relatively unfamiliar with Elixir Phoenix .<p>It&#x27;s a nice loop, I&#x27;m in the loop, and I&#x27;m learning Elixir and contributing a useful feature that has tests.
    • benatkin16 hours ago
      I think this is directing coders towards self-sufficiency and that&#x27;s a good thing. If they don&#x27;t end up using it for agentic coding, they can use it for running tests, builds, non-agentic voice controlled coding, video creation, running kubernetes, or agent orchestration. So no, it&#x27;s not evil, even if it doesn&#x27;t go quite as expected.
  • multisport16 hours ago
    inb4 qwen is less of a supply chain risk than anthropic
  • speedping6 hours ago
    open blogpost → ⌘ + F &quot;pelican&quot; → 0 results ???