> An Arizona man was sentenced Friday to 15 years in prison and ordered to pay more than $452 million in restitution for conspiring to defraud Medicare and other federal health care benefit programs of more than $1 billion by operating a platform that generated false doctors’ orders used to support fraudulent claims for various medical items.<p>I wish all headlines read like this instead of "here's why you should be scared"
As you would expect from a state press release, not a tabloid publication.
Here’s why you should be scared: CEO of health care company pardoned by Trump
I think fraudsters should have to work off the money they stole at prison wages…punishments are supposed to be deterent and prevent people from commingting crime…don’t seal a billion dollars becasue IF you get caught you will have to pay back half is not a deterent…BUT if they have to pay off a billion dollars at 13-52 cents/hour…that is a deterent!
That sounds like something you’d read in a Facebook comment. This is government-sanctioned slavery, and I strongly doubt that it would serve as a deterrent. People routinely put much more on the line for much less.
There’s a lot of research of people for whom punishment obviously didn’t act as a deterrent, and unsurprisingly this research concludes that the prospect of punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent.<p>There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment <i>did</i> act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime).<p>So I argue that there is a very big selection bias in literature surrounding the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent .
AFAIK, this is a (dangerous and misleading) simplification.<p>Punishment absolutely works as deterrent. Boy I know people that would absolutely forge the tax declaration, if it wasn't a terrible fine if they do!<p>The key point is the probability of the punishment being enforced. There is a trade off calculation going on, like "I could get 5 years prison and 10 grand fine... IF they catch me!". Studies suggest, that if you have 100% probability of being caught, then the punishment is extremely good deterrent.
> There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment did act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime).<p>Surely this can’t be true - as a trivial example I would be surprised if removing parking fines wouldn’t increase parking violations, or if Singapore stopped punishing littering that it wouldn’t affect the amount of littering etc<p>Maybe the difference between a 10 year or 20 year sentence for murder doesn’t make much difference, but if murder had <i>no punishment at all</i> I would be very surprised if that wouldn’t raise the murder rate!
What he's trying to say is that most people crimes under the assumption that they won't get caught, not that, if they get caught, they can withstand the punishment.
In the 'purely rational' crimes, it's going to be some sort of function of both right? The expected benefit, the risk that you get caught, and the severity of the punishment.<p>While I agree that people conducting corporate fraud think they will get away with it - I don't agree that the long sentences won't act as a deterrence. If you set the sentence for these sorts of crimes to 1 year rather than 15+, that completely changes the risk profile for people who think there is a 90% chance they will get away with it.
It's simpler than that. You just don't think about getting caught, it's not part of the plan.<p>Sentence length has a small effect on crime rates, but what really matters is enforcement levels. If you have a 99% chance of getting caught & punished, you don't bother.
A lot of research on this topic tends to look at correlations between crime rates and harshness of punishments, which would tend to include this effect.
Think of it this way if the sentence for speeding was life in prison, do you really think that wouldn’t have any effect on people speeding.<p>I think this just highlights how stupid the idea is that punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent
First there’s already government sanctioned slavery for the poor. At least it feels more like poetic justice for it to be applied to white collar crime and maybe that might spur changes to make prison labor more restorative rather than exploitative.
Unfortunately government sanctioned slavery does still exist in the US prison system.
Ah then I trust you are completely aware that federal prisons already make prisoners work for their keep, and the privatization of prisons and their lobbying has led to a vicious cycle of imprisonment for cheap prison slave labor?<p>Of course, those prisoners aren’t billionaire healthcare CEOs, so maybe not…
The US constitution explicitly allows for this (prisoner slavery) so there's that
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At that rate you can pay back maybe $1000 per year, so if you’re only going to live 30 more years there’s no difference in punishment between 30k in fraud and a billion dollars in fraud. Punishment is the same, so might as well scam more.
The movie Heat addresses this scenario in the opening scene. A guard is shot 'accidentally' during a robbery even though they didn't intend to kill anyone. At that point they killed all the guards because 1 guard or 3 guards, it had become a capital murder crime so might as well not leave any witnesses.
I'd like to see a prison sentence for corporations.
They should absolutely pay the money back. But why prison wages? Let they produce what they can, and pay back, with interest and all you want. I think it is more important that they are able to "undo" the damage, as to make they suffer.
The problem is that fraudsters won't be "producing", but instead will be stealing from others. They need to be in prison not because it's a punishment but because they cannot be trusted to participate in society honestly.<p>However, I don't think it's practical to get fraudsters to pay back all the money in most cases as they won't be able to. What we need is a faster way to detect and imprison fraudsters to limit the damage they do. Also, most people don't respond to the "size" of punishments, but more to the likelihood that they will be caught.
I wouldn't want to see that. That's called slavery!<p>And no, the severity of the crime does not (IMHO) justify it.
Slavery as punishment is actually allowed by the constitution...<p>AMENDMENT XIII<p>Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.<p><a href="https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment" rel="nofollow">https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment</a>
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical or moral, and there are enough examples of things in such categories.
That doesn't mean it's right, it means the constitution is wrong!<p>The constitution isn't a holy book, it's some opinions someone wrote down on paper. Some of them might be wrong.
Not just permitted, but actually widespread. If you’re imprisoned in Texas, Georgia, Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi, you are going to be doing unpaid forced labor which is slavery, and many of the prisons are privately owned.<p>Federal prisons pay roughly $0.12 to $0.40 per hour for regular jobs, which isn’t much better.<p>The hypocrisy of the US is breathtaking sometimes, and the current administration has the gall to criticise europe.
Just to play devil's advocate, you're okay with forcing a criminal to sit in a room for the rest of their life, but you're not okay if they also have to work for society during that timeframe. What is the main argument why the first case is okay and the second is not.
Because it creates perverse incentive for government to put more people in prison.<p>Right now the punishment is confinement. When you add effectively unpaid labour in prison as part of acceptable punishment, you're also paving the way for a future where unpaid labor as a standalone punishment is also acceptable. That's just slavery by law.
Outside in society, I have to work to pay my rent, to pay for my food.<p>Inside a prison, should they not have a similar responsibility? They commit a crime and as such are held in stasis? Should they not at least carry the burden of themselves
The problem is that there’s double dipping and profiteering. The prison company gets paid by the government for the same it costs the government to house prisoners and then contracts out the prison labor to private companies for basically pure profit. Private prisons’ ability to sell slave labor is a perverse system. The government doing so is at least marginally less but still exploitative in that it robs prisoners of their humanity and feeling like they’re part of the social fabric. Pay them a living wage for that effort and they start to learn that there’s respect and reward that come from being integrated in society.
Its a fair point but its probably not practical.<p>I don't think there's enough jobs in prisons that need physical labour where they can cover the costs. You would then have to train them in useful skills but incompetence is not a crime so you cannot penalize those who "cannot learn/do" skilled work.<p>Other alternative is to make
them work the same job they did outside but that is a slippery slope with lot of potential for abuse.
Apologies for my ignorance, exactly what kind of jobs do prisoners work inside that benefit the society outside?
the US has had lots of programs where labor can effectively be bought or contracted from prisoner sites by private companies.<p>I know of prison ran machine shops that were doing die-casting and tool production. I also heard of one (didn't see) that was doing basket weaving for a floral/arrangement company.<p>these are shallow 'social benefits'; but the companies were privately owned.<p>I guess the classic example is license plate pressing.. I guess that's a social good? I don't know if it goes on at all anymore.
Why do they have to stay inside? Have a chain gang trim overgrown weeds along roads, fill in potholes, clean leaves, clean and repair sidewalks, plant shrubs, etc.
> Because it creates perverse incentive for government to put more people in prison.<p>Except for some rare cases, I think you'll find that the cost of keeping an inmate in prison for a day makes it that you never break even
Or the taxpayers foot the bill for keeping the inmate in prison while private interests (including but not limited to private prisons and select contractors) take additional profit off the unpaid labor instead of passing savings to the consumer
Breaking even is more attractive than debt for a cash-strapped city
So if we could set it up in a way where there is no slippery slope, you would be okay with it?
Not really a perverse incentive. The government isn’t making any money here. They’re paying someone from their own pocket only to take it away again?<p>At that point it really is just slavery, which they can already do as protected in the US Constitution.<p>(I’m not arguing for this. I agree with restitution and believe that sentences longer than a certain point are also pointless and a net negative to society.)
thats why for some prison systems main goal is not punishment but rehabilitation. i think this is scandinavian approach.<p>"The stated goal of the Swedish prison system is to create a safer society by reducing recidivism and rehabilitating offenders rather than focusing solely on punishment. This is achieved through humane treatment, education, and reintegration programs designed to prepare prisoners for life after release."
Probably for the same reason that it's generally seen as less intrusive to prevent someone from doing something, compared to forcing them to do something.
If you aren't already seeing it, it's because you're eyes are closed or you're intentionally looking away: <a href="https://www.epi.org/publication/rooted-racism-prison-labor/" rel="nofollow">https://www.epi.org/publication/rooted-racism-prison-labor/</a>
Ok, so they <i>have</i> to. Or else what? Back of the envelope, it would take somewhere between 200k and 1 million years of 24/7 work to pay it back at that rate.
That might, maybe, make it more effective as a deterrent, and possibly as retribution, but it would be less effective for restitution (since it would take much longer for those defrauded to get paid back).
Fortunately we have a perfect justice system that never makes mistakes and never abuses their power, so let’s put all the convicts in prison for life for Mac deterrence!!
Seize the generational wealth they accumulated. Make their parents, siblings, kids, grandkids, cousins, etc. demonstrate how they <i>earned</i> their money and take every penny they can’t link to honest means.<p>The discussion around billionaires needs to move away from taxing their income and beyond taxing their wealth. We need to start talking about how much of their wealth we should be taking away. Light it on fire or delete it. The whole world will be better off.
I mean even at extremely high wages, cracking a billion is more than a lifetime
So token enforcement despite widespread corruption, collusion, racketeering, and rapacious bankrupting of ill, dying, and dead patients and their families in-lieu of a functional healthcare system that isn't obsessed with maximizing shareholder value over lives. It's literally the most expensive deathcare the market will bear.
Seeing a lot of these pop up more recently, but this has been happening for a decade now apparently. Isn't this the fault of Medicare itself, of not having routine checks and better processes for preventing these fraudulent claims at the source?<p>If only the big scams are being caught (and we don't know what % are being caught), there's likely a lot more going undetected.
Why does he only have to repay 45%?
Is Trump going to pardon this guy like he did Salomon Melgen, who was convicted in 2017 of defrauding Medicare out of $73 million?
Exactly what I was wondering. I guess it depends on how much he does or doesn’t “donate”.
He could pardon Mangione as well and that would make his karma even. Even Steven, just about square.
Meanwhile, we have the former governor of Florida and now Seantor from Florida Rick Scott, who was CEO of the company successfully prosecuted for the largest Medicare fraud in history ($1.7 billion) [1].<p>Here's what to watch: how long it takes for a donation to show up to the Trump library and how soon after that the sentence is commutted. This has erased roughly $1 billion in penalties so far since January 20. Hell, it might only take $1 million.<p>[1]: <a href="https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2003/June/03_civ_386.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2003/June/03_civ_386....</a>
I mean that’s pretty unabashed good news. I’m probably the most cynical person that comments regularly and I’ll take it!<p>It’s something at least.
He should run for the Senate.
79 years of age!? umm... i dont understand - is this supposed to be a warning to others, or an <i>invitation</i>?<p>where was the FBI for the last 40 years? or did he really just go postal post-covid?
see also: Odd Lots interviewed Jetson Leder-Luis about medicare and medicaid fraud (nov 2024): <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-fraudsters-are-bilking-the-government-out/id1056200096?i=1000677298171" rel="nofollow">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-fraudsters-are-bil...</a>
Good. Now do (Florida Senator) Rick Scott.
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> The fraudulent doctors’ orders generated by DMERx falsely represented that a doctor had examined and treated the Medicare beneficiaries when, in fact, purported telemedicine companies paid doctors to sign the orders without regard to medical necessity<p>They'll get doctors as well? Hopefully they are part of the co-conspirators group they mentioned they convicted at the start. Criminals are going to be criminal, but it's especially disheartening when doctors engage in this. All those years going to school should be canceled and thrown into the trash immediately if they get convicted of these kinds of crimes. The path of ever being a doctor should be closed for them.