5 comments

  • edot3 hours ago
    Related: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46355548">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46355548</a>
    • tomhow1 hour ago
      Comments moved thither. Thanks!
    • neogodless2 hours ago
      A bit more detail:<p><i>Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves</i> (404media.co)
  • tptacek3 hours ago
    I would love to watch a shorter version of this video that just discussed the deltas between the status quo and Flock, rather than breathlessly reporting the implications of cameras as if they were distinctive to Flock. He&#x27;ll spend 30 seconds talking about how you can see <i>every</i> activity and <i>every</i> person on the camera --- yeah, that&#x27;s how cameras work. There are thousands of public IP cameras on the Internet, aimed at intersections, public streets, houses, playgrounds, schools; most of them operated that way deliberately.<p>There <i>are</i> Flock-specific bad things happening here, but you have to dig through the video to get to them, and they&#x27;re not intuitive. The new Flock &quot;Condor&quot; cameras are apparently auto-PTZ, meaning that when they detect motion, they zoom in on it. That&#x27;s new! I want to hear more about that, and less about &quot;I had tears in my eyes watching this camera footage of a children&#x27;s playground&quot;, which is something you could have done last week or last year or last decade, or about a mental health police wellness detention somewhere where all the cops were already wearing FOIA-able body cams.<p>If open Flock cameras gave you the Flock search bar, that would be the end of the world. And the possibility that could happen <i>is</i> a good reason to push back on Flock. But that&#x27;s not what happened here.
    • fuzzylightbulb27 minutes ago
      Have you ever gone fishing? Did you catch all the fish?<p>Often it is more impactful to address one major&#x2F;tangible player in a particular space than it would be to &quot;boil the ocean&quot; and ensure that we are capturing every possible player&#x2F;transgressor. I agree that some of the video was overly breathless, but if that&#x27;s what wakes people up to the dangers of unsecured cameras&#x2F;devices then so be it.
      • tptacek24 minutes ago
        Ok, you&#x27;re the second person to say that, and I think my point is not clear enough. That&#x27;s on me.<p>This response would make sense if I was saying &quot;why focus on Flock, there are so many other ALPR cameras out there&quot; (also true, but not relevant to my point).<p>But this is a video that is <i>mostly</i> about things that are true of <i>all</i> IP cameras, of the kind that we&#x27;ve had staring out onto public streets for decades, plural decades. People celebrated those cameras, thought they were super neat, built sites indexing them. All of them do most of the same things this video says those Flock cameras did, the tiny minority of Flock cameras you can access publicly.
    • jkestner3 hours ago
      In my experience, people respond much more strongly to naming a specific company or person. Clearer plan of action than a resigned “This tech is old news.”
      • akerl_2 hours ago
        If your takeaway from that comment is that ‘tptacek thinks Flock’s tech is old news and he’s resigned about it, I think you’re going to be in for a treat.
      • tptacek2 hours ago
        Is the plan of action &quot;eliminate all public IP cameras&quot;? That&#x27;s coherent, I&#x27;d get it, but that doesn&#x27;t seem to be what he&#x27;s saying at all. He used a Google search to find exposed Flock admin consoles (interesting! say more about that!) but he could just as easily have just searched &quot;open IP cameras&quot;; there&#x27;s sites that do nothing but index those.
    • phyzome1 hour ago
      He&#x27;s pretty open in this video about how Flock is far from alone in this space, and he&#x27;s just using them as an example because they&#x27;re so popular and flagrantly abusive.
      • tptacek1 hour ago
        In what way this is an illustration of Flock&#x27;s &quot;flagrancy&quot;? I&#x27;m seriously asking. I&#x27;m not a Flock supporter. My point is that cameras just as sensitive as the ones he shows here are <i>deliberately</i> public on the Internet.
        • ryandrake1 hour ago
          It&#x27;s the attitude and marketing. Maybe not &quot;flagrant&quot; but &quot;ambitious,&quot; &quot;aggressive,&quot; and &quot;expansive.&quot; I don&#x27;t know the name of any other public surveillance&#x2F;camera company, but I&#x27;ve heard about Flock, and the same is probably true of any of my neighbors who are even the least bit tech-following. They are also ambitiously funded for growth and expansion and their outward press attitude is congruent.<p>Other camera companies would like to see steady year-over-year growth in camera sales. Flock would like to see the world blanketed in 24&#x2F;7 surveillance.<p>They make themselves a lightning rod as a business strategy.
          • tptacek57 minutes ago
            If Flock vanished off the Earth tomorrow I think we&#x27;d see exactly the same ALPR penetration. Municipalities aren&#x27;t buying these things because Flock&#x27;s so good at selling them; they&#x27;re buying because the ALPR vendors have an extremely compelling pitch! Two of our neighboring municipalities have non-Flock ALPRs; I think you&#x27;re going to see a lot of non-Flock ALPR penetration in progressive-leaning suburbs, for instance, because progressives are all het up about Flock.<p>(I helped get Flock cancelled in Oak Park, where I live, and before that led the passage of what I believe to be the most restrictive ALPR regs&#x2F;ordinance package in the country. I&#x27;m not an ALPR booster.)<p>But I&#x27;m going to keep saying: my thing about this video is that he&#x27;s describing <i>mostly</i> things that are true of all public IP cameras. There are zillions of those!
            • ryandrake42 minutes ago
              I think everyone in this thread can agree that surveillance cameras should be fought against, no matter whose brand is stamped on them. Flock is still a better than average target because of the attitude they project and because of name recognition.
              • tptacek39 minutes ago
                Wait, I don&#x27;t agree with that. Why do you assume everyone in this thread agrees with that?
                • ryandrake31 minutes ago
                  Sorry, I assumed you did, given the advocacy you mentioned you led.
                  • tptacek21 minutes ago
                    I pushed back on our Flock deployment because the particulars of its deployment meant that we were curbing more cars driven by innocent Black drivers than we were responding to any meaningful crimes, and because when we had Flock&#x27;s alerts enabled, the net effect was to take our selectively-recruited, highly-trained, very expensive police force and turn them into failure-to-appear-warrant debt collectors for nearby suburbs with far worse police departments.<p>It was not some nerd† principled stand against &quot;surveillance&quot;. My experience working on the public policy of this stuff is that when you take a stand against &quot;surveillance&quot;, normal people --- and I&#x27;m in what I believe to be one of the 10 most progressive municipalities in the country, the most progressive municipality in Chicagoland --- look at you like you&#x27;re a space alien.<p>† <i>I am, obviously, a nerd, fwiw.</i>
        • phyzome58 minutes ago
          His other two (much longer) videos go into those details. This one is more of a quick update.<p>Just to give you a sense of the kind of company we&#x27;re dealing with, the CEO of Flock called the guy who made a Flock camera map an &quot;antifa terrorist&quot;. He&#x27;s unhinged.
          • tptacek56 minutes ago
            Thanks! I know it&#x27;s a big ask, but can you give me pointers (rough timestamps, whatever). A friend told me to watch <i>this</i> video for the distinctive Flock badness, and the time I spent on that was not rewarded.
    • fuckflock3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • ChrisArchitect3 hours ago
    [dupe] Earlier article source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46355548">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46355548</a>
  • cm21872 hours ago
    A useful rule of thumb is that any video that is using music to convince you of something is generally bullshit in the first place.<p>Am I right to understand that all those cams are pointed to the street &#x2F; public places? I am not aware that there is any expectation of privacy, legally or otherwise, when you walk down the street. Sure, it is lame that those camera are unprotected, and shows how amateurish most of those IoT companies are. But how is that different from the thousands of live cams over youtube or the wider internet? Or the poorly secured CCTV watching every angle of any street in most big cities.<p>The author then uses face search engines to find personal information on the individuals. That is the creepy part, but has little to do with Flock, and you could have pulled those faces from any social network or any random video on youtube.
    • fecal_henge2 hours ago
      Am I right to understand that all those cams are pointed to the street &#x2F; public places?<p>- I think you would be wrong to understand that. How on earth did you reach that conclusion?<p>But how is that different from the thousands of live cams over youtube or the wider internet? Or the poorly secured CCTV watching every angle of any street in most big cities.<p>- More than one thing can be wrong at once. Requires nuanced thought I accept.<p>The author then uses face search engines to find personal information on the individuals. That is the creepy part.<p>- I think he is demonstrating the creepy opportinities. Did he share any of that information? I think anyone with bad intent probably probably not make a video explaining what they did.
      • cm21871 hour ago
        &gt; <i>- I think you would be wrong to understand that. How on earth did you reach that conclusion?</i><p>from the video only showing cams of public places (parking lots, parks and streets). And also it seems that this is how Flock markets itself on its website.<p>&gt; <i>- I think he is demonstrating the creepy opportinities. Did he share any of that information? I think anyone with bad intent probably probably not make a video explaining what they did.</i><p>I am not saying the author is creepy, I am saying face search engines and personal information available publicly are creepy. But nothing to do with Flock.
    • SamInTheShell2 hours ago
      You miss the point. This is a law enforcement tool. The average American doesn’t want a surveillance state and that’s literally what’s happening. The legal aspect of it is not in question here.<p>Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right. Anyone deploying or involved with this technology should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.
      • cm21872 hours ago
        That&#x27;s not the point the video makes. Flock didn&#x27;t invent CCTV. Not that I am trying to defend mass surveillance or incompetent silicon valley companies.
        • goda902 hours ago
          Flock &quot;invented&quot; CCTV in the USA that doesn&#x27;t requiring going to multiple locations and asking for their tapes in order to track someone across locations.