9 comments

  • zelphirkalt2 hours ago
    I want to raise a point that so far I have not seen in the top N comments: Often simplicity and cleverness are not opposites, because you can only find the simplest way to express something, when you are clever about it. Your solution doesn&#x27;t have to &quot;smell clever&quot;, no, it can be deceptively simple, making the casual reader think &quot;of course it works this way&quot;, but when such casual reader was supposed to come up with such a solution, they might invent something unnecessarily convoluted, because their mind has not cut through all the stuff like a knife through butter and they were not so clever. To find the simplest abstraction, that is still able to represent everything you need to represent, and at the same time doesn&#x27;t have unpleasant consequences like being very slow, or super difficult to understand is the actual cleverness. Writing code no one can understand is not actually that clever. It might be clever in terms of oneself solving a problem at a specific time, but it is not so clever in terms of that thing being maintainable, adaptable, readable, improvable, in the mid and long term.<p>We don&#x27;t write everything in lambda calculus or SKI calculus or something like that, even though those things are made up of very simple parts, complexity would <i>emerge</i>. They are not the right choice for most tasks. How do you make it readable? Can you write something that is very clear and performant at the same time, while preventing yourself from programming yourself into a corner? That&#x27;s where you need to get really clever.
    • staticassertion26 minutes ago
      Yeah, I don&#x27;t know about other fields but the way &quot;simple&quot;, &quot;complex&quot;, &quot;clever&quot; are used in software is so backwards and inconsistent. These terms mean nothing in tech and we should excise them.<p>Much of what MacKinnon is referring to here would be seen as simple, complex, or clever by many people. He advocates for static languages but when he does so he talks about &quot;useful&quot; and &quot;tradeoffs&quot;, which are radically better terms if you actually want to discuss these topics.<p>One case he talks about is an abstraction over Mongo, but then the queries were designed for mongo. Is that an issue of simple or complex? I have no idea, I&#x27;d say neither. The issue was that you abstracted away essential properties of your system.<p>TBH, despite the title, what he says is seemingly radically more about tradeoffs and actual concrete ways to write software - I didn&#x27;t hear him talk that much about &quot;simple&quot; or &quot;complex&quot; and what he said were instead reasonable cases where things went right or wrong, or his more nuanced opinions on why certain techniques and technologies lead to better outcomes. Ultimately any productive conversation ends up that way, if you find yourself saying &quot;simple&quot; or &quot;complex&quot; a lot in a conversation then you&#x27;re probably doing it wrong.
  • Mikhail_Edoshin6 hours ago
    Simplicity and complexity are not opposites. Things become complex when we attend to multiple simple things at the same time.<p>For example, we have an algorithm that requires a key-value store with typical semantic. For the purposes of our algorithm we could simulate that store using an array and straightforward search and insert routines that just loop through the array without trying to be smart. Then we could attend to details of that key-value store and use a more efficient approach, this time without thinking about our original algorithm; or, perhaps, with a clear understanding of its access pattern.<p>In both cases the task at hand won&#x27;t be more complex than necessary. But if we try to do both at the same time, it will be way more complex.<p>Here the separation is clear, but in real programming it is not clear and to discover these lines of separations is basically the essence of building a system. I think Brad Cox was occupied with that with his Software-IC concept and I kind of share his view that this is yet to happen. Things we build are not as composable as they should be; as they are in other industries.
    • Mikhail_Edoshin4 hours ago
      An example: there is a text &quot;shaping&quot; library that takes a font, an input string and produces a sequence of glyphs to typeset that string. Modern fonts and certain scripts are very complex and this task is not trivial. Now, this particular library takes an UTF-8 string. Which means it has an UTF-8 decoder inside.<p>But a text shaping library does not need an UTF-8 decoder. The product it is used in will certainly have one or, if it works in UTF-16 or, as Python, uses 3-way encoding, may not even need it and thus will have to add an UTF-8 encoding step only to communicate with that library. A simpler design would be to remove that UTF-8 decoder and make the library to accept Unicode characters as integers. If we need UTF-8, it is trivial to decode a string and feed the resulting Unicode into the shaper; if we don&#x27;t, it is equally trivial to use the library with any other encoding.<p>(I guess I ended up with a slightly different example than I intended.) Anyway, removing an UTF-8 decoder here would result in a simpler and more universal design, although - this is an unexpected development - it may superficially look more complex to many people who have the &quot;standard&quot; UTF-8 string and just need to get the job done.
      • mxey4 hours ago
        If this makes the library harder to use because most people will have UTF-8 strings, I’m not sure that’s a win.
        • TeMPOraL3 hours ago
          In other words, circling back to Brad Cox&#x27;s Software ICs, we&#x27;re all using <i>devboards and Arduinos</i> instead, because those look simple to newbies and save a little glue work here and there.<p>In hardware world, it&#x27;s fine to use devboards and Arduinos to prototype things, but then you&#x27;re supposed to stop being a newbie, stop using breadboards, and actually design circuits using relevant ICs directly, with minimal amount of glue in between. Unfortunately, in software, manufacturing costs are too cheap to meter, so we&#x27;re fine with using bench-top prototypes in production, because we&#x27;re not the ones paying the costs for the waste anyway, our users are.<p>(Our users, and hardware developers too, as they get the blame for &quot;low battery life&quot; of products running garbage software.)
          • mxey1 hour ago
            &gt; Unfortunately, in software, manufacturing costs are too cheap to meter, so we&#x27;re fine with using bench-top prototypes in production, because we&#x27;re not the ones paying the costs for the waste anyway, our users are.<p>I’m not sure what you’re trying to say - UTF-8 is the standard text encoding by a mile. It’s not a prototype.
            • TeMPOraL1 hour ago
              UTF-8 here is like having a devboard with an USB controller chip, complete with power circuitry and USB port. It could all be high-quality components, it&#x27;s super useful to have it on the board for prototyping, but in the actual product, you aren&#x27;t going to ship three devboards wired by SPI, but each carrying some combination of USB, Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth controllers and other stuff, all of it disabled&#x2F;unused, all because you need three ICs and found it easier to order devboards. You&#x27;re just going to use the ICs you care about, supply the USB controller and port and necessary wiring yourself, and otherwise use minimum amount of extra components necessary.<p>So, in context of Mikhail_Edoshin&#x27;s example, I&#x27;m saying that this &quot;text shaping library&quot; they mention is basically a devboard - full of components not necessary for its core functions. Most software libraries are like that, so applications using them are basically like a device built from wiring up a bunch of devboards.
        • Mikhail_Edoshin3 hours ago
          The reason this is so is that there is no way to say &quot;the library accepts UTF-32, for other encodings use the standard decoder&quot; because there is no such a decoder. &quot;For want of a nail&quot;. So it circles back to the idea of easily composable software which is not yet there. Everybody bring their own nails and there is no way to move nails between projects.
          • mxey1 hour ago
            What do you mean that there is no standard decoder? For what, UTF-8?<p>I agree on the composability. Accepting Unicode code points is more generic. I guess it depends on your environment. If every caller will combine it with a UTF-8 decoder, you might want to include it.
            • Mikhail_Edoshin38 minutes ago
              I meant something like a standard component that everybody uses (or a selection of components that vary here and there but are interchangeable in general). A catalog of such components; a - well, I&#x27;ll say it - a software factory that builds them, a fast one, a slower but very detailed on errors, one that accepts single bytes, one that takes a pointer to a string, and so on, all different, yet all working in the same way as far as the main task is concerned.
  • ZuoCen_Liu6 hours ago
    While I agree with MacKinnon in principle, we must acknowledge that simplicity is a luxury enabled by the surplus of compute power. &gt; There are domains where &#x27;cleverness&#x27; isn&#x27;t just a vanity project, but a hard requirement. Take the Fast Inverse Square Root from Quake III or modern Zero-copy networking in high-throughput systems like Kafka. If we prioritized &#x27;simple and readable&#x27; code in those contexts, we would be leaving orders of magnitude of performance on the table.<p>Sometimes, &#x27;clever&#x27; code is simply code that refuses to ignore the underlying reality of the hardware. The danger isn&#x27;t cleverness itself, but unnecessary cleverness applied to problems where the bottleneck is human understanding rather than machine execution.
  • N_Lens1 hour ago
    Also reminds me of the series of humorous posts saying essentially the same thing by Grug - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;grugbrain.dev&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;grugbrain.dev&#x2F;</a><p>&quot;grug brain developer not so smart, but grug brain developer program many long year and learn some things although mostly still confused&quot;<p>&quot;grug brain developer try collect learns into small, easily digestible and funny page, not only for you, the young grug, but also for him because as grug brain developer get older he forget important things, like what had for breakfast or if put pants on&quot;
  • Rakshath_14 hours ago
    Really solid discussion on maintainability. I liked the recurring theme that clarity beats cleverness, especially the points on over-abstraction RFCs as a cultural tool and documentation focusing on why instead of restating code. The examples from consulting and legacy systems made it feel very grounded and practical.
  • gaigalas4 hours ago
    What I truly enjoy is software that has:<p>- One tiny piece of extremely clever abstraction.<p>- A huge amount of simple pieces that would be more complex without that tiny piece.<p>In other words, the clever abstraction can be justified if it enables lots of simplicity. It has to do it right now, not in the future.<p>If your kernel is complicated but writing drivers is simple, people won&#x27;t even notice the abstractions. They will think of the system as &quot;simple&quot;, without realizing there is some clever stuff making that &quot;simple&quot; possible.
    • ZaoLahma1 hour ago
      This is the correct way. Make it unnecessary to look at and into the clever code until it&#x27;s absolutely necessary to look at and into the clever code.<p>The vast majority of those who are affected by what you&#x27;re doing should be asking themselves why you never seem to be doing anything difficult.
  • odie55333 hours ago
    I try to put clever solutions in their own file so that I can later replace them with something boring.
  • omnicognate4 hours ago
    People talk about &quot;complexity&quot; and &quot;simplicity&quot; in code without defining them. I&#x27;ve arrived at a way of looking it that I think makes it reasonably unambiguous. I prefer &quot;opaque&quot; to &quot;complicated&quot; for this concept, but I think it&#x27;s really the same thing people mean when they talk about code being over-complicated.<p>Opaque code is code that requires you to form an unnecessarily large, detailed mental model of it in order to answer a particular question you may have about it.<p>People rarely read code in its entirety, like a novel. There is almost always a specific question they want to answer. It might be &quot;how will it behave in this use case?&quot;, &quot;how will this change affect its behaviour?&quot; or &quot;what change should I make it to achieve this new behaviour?&quot;. Alternatively, it might be something more high level, but still specific, like &quot;how does this fit together?&quot; (i.e. there&#x27;s a desire to understand the overall organisational principles of the code, rather than a specific detail).<p>Opaque code typically:<p>* Requires you to read and understand large volumes of what should be irrelevant code in order to answer your question, often across multiple codebases.<p>* Requires you to do difficult detective work in order to identify what code needs to be read and understood to answer the question with confidence.<p>* Only provides an answer to your question with caveats&#x2F;assumptions about human behaviour, such as &quot;well unless someone has done X somewhere, but I doubt anyone would do that and would have to read the entire codebase to be sure&quot;.<p>Of course, this doesn&#x27;t yield some number as to how &quot;opaque&quot; the code is, and importantly it depends on the question you&#x27;re asking. A codebase might be quite transparent to some questions and opaque to others. It can be a very useful exercise to think about what questions people are likely to seek answers for from a given codebase.<p>When you think about things this way, you come to realise a lot of supposedly good practices actually exacerbate code opacity, often for the sake of &quot;reusability&quot; of things that will never be reused. Dependency injection containers are a bête noire of mine for this reason. There&#x27;s nothing wrong with dependency injection itself (giving things their dependencies rather than having them create them), but DI containers tend to end up being dependency obfuscators, and the worst ones import a huge amount of quirky, often poorly-documented behaviour into your system. They are probably the single biggest cause of having to spend an entire afternoon trawling through code, often including that of the blasted container itself (and runtime config!), to answer what should be a very simple and quick question about a codebase.<p>&quot;Clever&quot; is a different thing to &quot;complicated&quot; or &quot;opaque&quot;, and it&#x27;s not always a negative. People can certainly make code much more opaque by doing &quot;clever&quot; things, but sometimes (maybe rather too rarely) they can do the opposite. A small, well thought out bit of &quot;clever&quot; code can often greatly reduce the opacity of a much larger amount of code that uses it. Thinking about what a particular &quot;clever&quot; idea will do to the opacity (as defined above) of the codebase can be a good way to figure out whether it is worth doing.
  • netbioserror9 hours ago
    Obvious is good. Optimization can come later. Cleverness is for when you are out of options.<p>The programming landscape 30+ years ago and its severely constrained resources strongly biased our idea of &quot;good software&quot; in favor of cleverness. I think we can say we know better now. Having been responsible for picking up someone else&#x27;s clever code myself.
    • themafia7 hours ago
      &gt; severely constrained resources<p>Energy is a resource. Mobile computing devices demonstrate this constraint already. I predict that what is old will become new again.
    • andersmurphy8 hours ago
      Do we? I feel the layers of abstraction are quite extensive now. They are anything but simple.
      • Ygg28 hours ago
        (Good) Abstraction is there to hide complexity. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s controversial to say that software has become extremely complex. You need to support more spoken languages, more backends, more complex devices, etc.
        • elktown5 hours ago
          The most complex thing to support is peoples&#x27; resumes. If carpenters were incentivized like software devs are, we&#x27;d quickly start seeing multi-story garden sheds in reinforced concrete because every carpenters dream job at Bunkers Inc. pays 10x more.