5 comments

  • loeg4 hours ago
    The live feed buries the only useful information at the very bottom of the article:<p>&gt; The plane manufacturer says it has found that intense radiation from the Sun could corrupt data crucial to flight controls.<p>&gt; It’s thought most will be able to undergo a simple software update.<p>&gt; The issue was discovered after a JetBlue aircraft en-route from Mexico to the United States in October experienced a ‘sudden drop in altitude’.<p>&gt; The plane made an emergency landing, with reports at the time suggesting 15 to 20 people suffered minor injuries.<p>&gt; It’s thought the incident was caused by intense solar radiation, which corrupted data in a computer used to help control the aircraft.
    • CGMthrowaway3 hours ago
      On the Qantas 72 flight (2008), the ATSB report showed the same power spike that upset the ADIRU also left tidy 1-word corruptions in the flight data recorder. Those aligned with the clock cycle, shared the same amplitude and were confined to single ARINC words. That is pretty much exactly the signature of a failing solid state relay or contactor on the shared avionics power bus (upstream of both FDR and fly by wire).<p>Radation-driven bit flips would be Poisson distributed in time and energy. So that is one way to find out
      • captainkrtek3 hours ago
        Do you think they&#x27;re using the guise of &quot;its solar radiation&quot; as cover to do a software update to fix a more problematic &quot;bug&quot;, and perhaps tangentially there are some changes in said-update to improve some error correcting type code (eg: related to detecting spurious bit flips).
        • maximilianburke2 hours ago
          Not in aviation.
        • aunty_helen2 hours ago
          No, that would be straight to jail.
          • vlovich1231 hour ago
            Remind me who from Boeing went to jail?
            • stackghost1 hour ago
              Airbus is in Europe where the Rule of Law still exists
              • vlovich12352 minutes ago
                That’s what we naively thought here too.
        • fooker2 hours ago
          Yeah I don&#x27;t buy it either.<p>If it was really &#x27;solar radiation&#x27; there would be more small details.
          • chasing0entropy1 hour ago
            I would say its pretty detailed -an unknown interference caused a single crc protected 32 bit word to be corrupted simultaneously, by timestamp, in both the flight controller hardware and the black box data recorder.<p>My concern would be what error correction mechanism did or did not catch the corruption in memory and why did it not recover without critical impact to operations?
            • fooker1 hour ago
              &gt; corrupted simultaneously<p>This sounds like a software bug.<p>Something like - {copy a to b, checksum a--b}<p>Instead of - {copy a to t, checksum a--t, copy t to b, checksum a--b}<p>I bet the fix is along these lines, with the caveat of real time systems&#x2F;etc.
      • RealityVoid2 hours ago
        After reset, it went away. If it was this kind of hw issue, it should still be present.<p>Considering those units were designed back when they did not have EDAC mandated, I can believe it could have been a bit flip (along with some other stuff they will probably address to take into consideration this failure mode). Nowadays, most MCU&#x27;s have ECC on them so the time of this excuse is mostly gone now. :)
        • dylan60425 minutes ago
          &gt; Nowadays, most MCU&#x27;s have ECC on them so the time of this excuse is mostly gone now. :)<p>That&#x27;s kind of a misleading statement. Assuming you mean on planes built nowadays, as we clearly see that nowadays planes still flying (6K of them at least) still have issues. We don&#x27;t need hand wavy comments trying to make it sound like modern day aviation is no longer susceptible, especially when it&#x27;s in a thread on an article showing how that&#x27;s just not true
      • kranke1553 hours ago
        What do you think it could be ?
        • dmbche3 hours ago
          &quot;That is pretty much exactly the signature of a failing solid state relay or contactor on the shared avionics power bus (upstream of both FDR and fly by wire).&quot;
          • kranke1553 hours ago
            Thanks. I didn’t realise what that meant in context.
    • SoftTalker2 hours ago
      The software update is actually a rollback, apparently.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pprune.org&#x2F;rumours-news&#x2F;669424-airbus-a320-recall-due-flight-control-issue.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pprune.org&#x2F;rumours-news&#x2F;669424-airbus-a320-recal...</a>
    • a-dub2 hours ago
      i wonder how definitive that is and how well they were able to reproduce the issue under controlled conditions and how strong the evidence is that there was particularly strong solar radiation in play. it would probably be a good thing if they published technical details for investigations like this that impact public safety.<p>i believe it could be solar radiation, but i also believe that solar radiation could be a catch-all for unexplained phenomena.
    • piker3 hours ago
      Interesting how radiation issues could be solved in software.
      • tonyarkles2 hours ago
        To give you a bit of insight, around the same timeframe (late October&#x2F;early November) I directly observed two high-accuracy RTK GPS receivers reporting high accuracy (2cm), full 3D DGPS lock with carrier phase, and positions wandering within about a 5m circle horizontally. The altitude was staying pretty consistent (within about 1m, which was outside of the reported accuracy but not bad) until there was a sudden 60m altitude shift. This was all while they were sitting static on the ground, verified both by the crew and the accelerometer, gyro, and RADAR data.<p>There wasn’t a software <i>fix</i> per se, but we were able to quickly add a check to verify that the Kalman Filter’s position variance estimate was on the same order of magnitude as the accuracy level that the receivers were reporting and put a big red warning up. This wasn’t a flight-critical system, but it is the first time we’d ever seen that behaviour from those receivers and we’ve used them for 5 years.
        • RossBencina2 hours ago
          Not my area at all, but I&#x27;m extremely surprised that a fly-by-wire system would use GPS as an altitude reference. Is that really the case?
          • adhambadr1 hour ago
            It’s a combined signal system, using pressure based sensors + gps.
            • ape41 hour ago
              And inertial guidance too?
        • a-dub2 hours ago
          i would expect a huge shift like that to violate the gaussian assumption of the kalman filter? (which i guess is what you&#x27;re checking, sort of?). regardless i would expect the kalman filter to smooth the shift over some substantial time at least?
      • matja3 hours ago
        Perhaps it&#x27;s improving the checksum algorithm on network packets, or even ... adding one.
        • amelius2 hours ago
          Makes you wonder, if&#x2F;how _passengers_ are directly protected against the radiation
          • fragmede2 hours ago
            They&#x27;re not. Excessive high altitude flight increases your chance of developing melanoma.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC9447865&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC9447865&#x2F;</a>
            • amelius2 hours ago
              Ok, I&#x27;ll take an aisle seat more often now instead of a window seat.
              • userbinator2 hours ago
                Unless you fly as often as pilots and other onboard staff, it&#x27;s unlikely to be significant.
      • stackghost3 hours ago
        It comes down to voting algorithms and memory persistence. Sometimes there is a threshold before data are &quot;voted out&quot;.<p>I don&#x27;t work on the A320 but solar radiation is a well-known issue in avionics, generally speaking.<p>Edit: deleted some speculation
      • lazide3 hours ago
        Finally turning on the ECC RAM option?
      • mandeepj3 hours ago
        Maybe there&#x27;s a range that requires a change?<p>Now imagine, if it was over the air update, then maybe there would be no disruption?
      • SoftTalker3 hours ago
        Agreed, I expected additional shielding or something physical like that.
      • AnimalMuppet3 hours ago
        s&#x2F;solved&#x2F;mitigated&#x2F;
    • pixelesque2 hours ago
      Note that the software update (it actually looks like a roll-back to an older version?) will only fix 4,500 newer aircraft, another older 2,000 (not sure what these are, they can&#x27;t be pre-NEO, the ratios seem wrong?) will also need a hardware fix.
    • convenwis3 hours ago
      I&#x27;m amazed airlines haven&#x27;t put up press releases detailing what is happening with their fleets yet. It has been a few hours so presumably they know and in the US at least this is a crazy busy weekend for travel.
    • rester3242 hours ago
      Also: &gt; The radiation corrupted data in the ELAC - a computer used to operate control surfaces on the wings and horizontal stabilizer.
      • Zetaphor2 hours ago
        It&#x27;s unclear to me how a software update is supposed to help this component with radiation shielding
  • loloquwowndueo4 hours ago
    At least they didn’t wait for a crash before doing this :&#x2F;
    • Iridescent_4 hours ago
      The proper reaction when you have a potential issue in your engineering
      • loloquwowndueo3 hours ago
        Sorry forgot to add “unlike that other aerospace company”
        • nickff3 hours ago
          Airbus is not immune to design &amp; manufacturing issues with fatal consequences, they’re just not too-of-mind these days. A similar issue seems to have ‘cropped up’ on this flight: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Qantas_Flight_72" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Qantas_Flight_72</a><p>There was a television show (episode) about another design issue (which was fatal) some time ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Air_France_Flight_447" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Air_France_Flight_447</a>
          • hexbin0103 hours ago
            &gt; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Air_France_Flight_447" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Air_France_Flight_447</a><p>Quoting your link, &quot;Final Report&quot; section:<p>&gt; Temporary inconsistency between the measured speeds, likely as a result of the obstruction of the pitot tubes by ice crystals, caused autopilot disconnection and [flight control mode] reconfiguration to &quot;alternate law (ALT)&quot;.<p>- The crew made inappropriate control inputs that destabilized the flight path.<p>- The crew failed to follow appropriate procedure for loss of displayed airspeed information.<p>- The crew were late in identifying and correcting the deviation from the flight path.<p>- The crew lacked understanding of the approach to stall.<p>- The crew failed to recognize the aircraft had stalled, and consequently did not make inputs that would have made recovering from the stall possible.<p>Note the numerous &quot;the crew&quot;
            • dylan6048 minutes ago
              This is one of those situations where I think it&#x27;d be fun to be a flight simulator &quot;operator&quot;. Finding new ways to cause pilots to figure out how to overcome whatever the plane is doing to them. Any pilot that ever comes out of a simulator thinking &quot;like that would ever happen&quot; instead of &quot;that was an interesting situation to keep in mind as possible&quot; should have their wings clipped.<p>Taking a grain of salt since it&#x27;s from a movie, but one of the things about Sully setting the plane down in the river was due to his experience of not just the aircraft itself but also situation awareness to realize he was too low to safely divert to an airport. He instinctually &quot;skipped&quot; several steps in the procedures to engage the APU which turned out to be pretty key. The intimated thing being that the procedure was so long that they might not have gotten to the APU in time going step-by-step.
            • snuxoll41 minutes ago
              The reality is that CRM is still the most important factor required to have a reasonable chance of turning what would otherwise be a catastrophic aviation incident into something that people walk away from. Systems do fail, when they do it&#x27;s up to the crew to enact memory items as quickly as possible and communicate with each other like they are trained to.<p>Unfortunately, sometimes they also fail in ways that even a trained crew isn&#x27;t able to recover the aircraft. That could be a failure that wasn&#x27;t anticipated, training that was inadequate, design flaws, the human element, you name it. Actions of the crew being put in an accident report isn&#x27;t an assignment of blame, it&#x27;s a statement of facts - the recommendations that come from those facts are all that matters.
            • Arainach3 hours ago
              It&#x27;s often easy to blame the humans in the loop, but if the UX is poor or the procedures too complicated, then it&#x27;s a systems fault even if the humans technically didn&#x27;t &quot;follow procedure&quot;.
            • nickff2 hours ago
              Crews saved multiple 737-MAXs, but the public has focused on the aircraft whose crews were less effective.
            • ern2 hours ago
              The relief second officer basically pulled up when the stall protection had been disabled and by the time the other pilot and captain realized what was happening it was too late to save the plane.<p>There is a design flaw though: the sidesticks in modern Airbus planes are independent, so the other pilot didn’t get any tactile feedback when the second officer was pulling back.
              • berti25 minutes ago
                You do get an audible &quot;DUAL INPUT DUAL INPUT&quot; warning and some lights though [1]. It is never allowable to make sidestick inputs unless you are the single designated &quot;pilot flying&quot;, but people can sometimes break down under stress of course.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;safetyfirst.airbus.com&#x2F;app&#x2F;themes&#x2F;mh_newsdesk&#x2F;documents&#x2F;archives&#x2F;dual-side-stick-inputs.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;safetyfirst.airbus.com&#x2F;app&#x2F;themes&#x2F;mh_newsdesk&#x2F;docume...</a>
            • dghlsakjg2 hours ago
              Faulting the crew is a common thing in almost all air incidents. In this case the crew absolutely could have saved the plane, but the plane did not help them at all.<p>Part of the sales pitch of the Airbus is that the computer does A LOT of handholding for the pilots. In many configurations, including the one that the plane was flying in at the start of the incident, the inputs that caused the crash would have been harmless.<p>In that incident the airspeed feed was lost to the computer and it literally changed the flight controls and turned off the safety limits, and none of the three people in the cockpit noticed. When an Airbus changes flight control modes, it does not keep inputs idempotent. Something harmless under one set of &quot;laws&quot; could crash the plane under another set of laws. In this case, what the pilot with the working control stick was doing would not have caused a crash, except that the computer had taken off the training wheels without anyone noticing.<p>As a result of changing the primary controls one pilot was able to unintentionally place the plane in an unrecoverable state <i>without the other pilots even noticing that he was making control inputs</i>.<p>Tack on that the computer intentionally disregarded the stall warning emanating from the AOA sensor as erroneous at a certain point and did not alert the pilots that the plane was stalled. You are taught from day one of flight training that if you hear the stall alarm you push the power in, and push the nose down until the alarm stops. In this case the stall warning came on, and then as the stall got worse, it turned itself off, with the computer under the mistaken belief that the plane could not actually be that far stalled. So the one alarm that they are trained to respond to in a certain way to recover the plane from a stall was silenced. If I was flying and I heard the stall alarm, then heard it stop, I would assume that I was no longer stalled, not that the plane was so far stalled that the stall alarm was convinced it had broken itself.<p>So yes, the pilots flew the aircraft into the ground, but the computer suffered a partial failure and then changed how the primary flight controls operated.<p>Imagine if the brake pedal, steering wheel, and accelerator all started responding to inputs differently when your car had a sensor issue. That causes the cruise control to fail. Add in that the cruise control failure turns off ABS, auto-brakes, lane assist, and stability control for some reason. Oh yeah, there&#x27;s a steering control on the other side of the car on the armrest and the person sitting there can now make steering inputs, but it won&#x27;t give feedback in your steering wheel, and also your steering wheel still can be manipulated when the other guy is steering, but it is completely disconnected from the tires while the other guy is steering. All of the controls are also more sensitive now, and allow you to do things that wouldn&#x27;t have been possible a few seconds ago. Also, its a storm in the middle of the night, so you don&#x27;t have a good visual reference for speed. So now your car is slipping, at night, in a storm, lights are flashing everywhere, nothing makes sense since the instruments are not reading correctly. However, the car is working <i>exactly</i> as described in the manual. When the car ends up in a ditch, the investigation will find that the cause of the crash was driver error since the car was operating exactly as it was designed.<p>Worth noting that Boeing (and just about every other aircraft on earth) has linked flight controls between the two pilot&#x27;s positions that always behave in the exact same way so this type of failure could have never happened on a 737 for example.<p>At the end of the day, this was pilot error, but more in a &quot;You&#x27;re holding it wrong, I didn&#x27;t design it wrong&quot; kind of way. After all, there were three people with a combined 20k flying hours, including thousand of hours in that design.<p>If three extremely qualified pilots that have literal years of experience in that cockpit, who are rigorously trained and tested on a regular basis for emergencies in that cockpit, can fly the thing into the ground due to a cascade from a single human error... maybe the design of the user interface needs a look.<p>You also conveniently skipped over the parts of the wikipedia article where they charged the manufacturer with manslaughter, and documented dozens of similar incidents, and the entire section outlining the Human Computer Interface concerns.
        • petcat3 hours ago
          As if Airbus hasn&#x27;t suffered horrific crashes of their airplanes killing hundreds of people
    • limagnolia3 hours ago
      It was only discovered after a flight experienced the issue, though. It could have been much more serious.
    • signatoremo2 hours ago
      But what does it say about their QA or lack of it?<p>Just to be clear, I’m not faulting Airbus. I take issues with the shallow snark at Boeing. The JetBlue incident was serious.<p>Airbus isn’t immune to controversies , like AF447 or Habsheem air show crash in 1988
      • gman832 hours ago
        As software developers, we should perhaps refrain from criticizing aeronautical engineers&#x27; QA standards.
        • dylan6046 minutes ago
          &quot;push to prod, let the users debug for us&quot; would at least, I&#x27;d hope, offer lower ticket prices for said users.
      • zoeysmithe2 hours ago
        In most capitalist organizations QA begs for more time. &quot;getting to market&quot; and &quot;this years annual reports&quot; are what help cause situations not here, not the working class, who want to do a good job.
      • 7256862 hours ago
        a problem on 1 flight in a gazillion, and you complain about QA?
        • signatoremo2 hours ago
          Yes? How do you know it’s not? They roll back to a previous version. How do they know that version isn’t prone to the same issue?
    • nrhrjrjrjtntbt3 hours ago
      Well &quot;I ain&#x27;t going&quot; didn&#x27;t let a mere crash or two stop them.
  • dboreham7 minutes ago
    Something seems off when the same nonsensical report gets through the world&#x27;s journalists (ok...arts graduates, but none of them is married to an engineer??), is published everywhere, then many hours elapse and still nobody has been able to make sense of it.
  • ChrisArchitect5 hours ago
    More discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46082296">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46082296</a>
  • lysace2 hours ago
    Is this the graph of the root cause?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.swpc.noaa.gov&#x2F;products&#x2F;solar-cycle-progression" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.swpc.noaa.gov&#x2F;products&#x2F;solar-cycle-progression</a>
    • btown2 hours ago
      IMO saying that predictable solar cycles are a “root cause” is like calling Bobby Tables’ mom (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;327&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;327&#x2F;</a>) the root cause of a SQL injection vulnerability.